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Anyone else miss the 24mm F21 or 29mm G35 Econojets?

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Beanboy

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Back in the early 2000s as a BAR, The F20/G35 were fun motors to launch large but built-like-typical-Estes-kits off of 1/4" launch rods. Then the F21 Econojet made an appearance a bit later, bringing the fun directly to 24mm Estes models. Have a Stormcaster, for example, that's been launched multiple times on F21s.

My oldest son is started to show a glimmer of interest, so for the first time in a decade, looking what's available in the E-G range. Bummed that the F21 is gone, replaced solely by the F44 which burns for under a second. In the 29mm category, glad to see the F20/F23, but the rest are all fast-burning Fs, and no G35. Yes, there are the competition motors like the F10 and G25, but they are nearly double the cost.

Any chance we'll see more white lightning Economax/Econojet 24mm-29mm motors from Aerotech again like the F21 and G35?
 
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mikec

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I've also been disappointed in the thrust profiles of the recent Economax line (F44/F67/G74) and would prefer less-punchy motors, but there may be economic reasons why AT went this way.

The E20 has only a little less total impulse than the F44, FWIW.
 

Beanboy

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Glad I'm not the only one! The G35 was a really fun motor to use, and the F21 sounded and looked great.
 

ThirstyBarbarian

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I’m not familiar with those earlier motors.

I think all of the EconoJet and EconoMax motors are going through a process of being rebranded under one EnerJet label. The F20 is one of my favorite single-use F motors, and it costs less than larger single-use Fs and ships without hazmat. F23 is a pretty good motor, but I prefer white flame and smoke over black. F27 is a nice red motor, but it doesn’t have quite as much oomph as an F20. Those three are good for slightly longer burns and slower speeds.

The F67 and G74 are good for certain uses. They are very fast, so they are good for a fast flight, if that’s what you want. But they are also good for lows and slow flights of heavier rockets, when that’s called for. You can fly rockets built for larger motors, like large G motors or even H motors on these and keep them low, like 500 feet or less. They have enough thrust to get off the pad safely, then shut down and start coasting. Sometimes that’s what you need. BTW, that G74 requires hazmat shipping, so I don’t really think it belongs in the “econo” lines with the rest. Aerotech is so bad with their branding, and they like to make exceptions that screw up their brand concepts.

For 24mm, I like the E20 a lot. I’ve had enough E9 and E12 catos that I prefer E20’s. The F44 has a lot of power for many 24mm motor mount rockets built for Estes E’s, probably too much for most. That one I have mostly used an adapter to fly it in rockets with larger mounts when I need the thrust, but not the impulse. I have an old NCR Big Brute with the oddball 28mm motor mount, so the only motor I’ve found for it is the F44 with an improvised adapter.

If you are looking for longer burning white motors than what are in these “econo“ lines, you could look at the F25 and G40. They cost more than the smaller ones and they require hazmat shipping, but they have a long, gentle thrust curve. F26 and G38 are like that too, with black smoke.
 

rcktnut

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I burnt up a lot of the G35's when they were available. Good motors. I still like the F20's glad they are around yet. The E15's are gone now too, prefer them way over the E 20's as they were a full E, with a nice long burn.
 

Beanboy

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Right, I should have included the E15 as part of the conversation as well. At the time of the F21, I used Estes E9s, and didn't make the switch to AP until needed.

There's a nice range of 'D' rockets that would fly well off the low-power pads at a club launch that could fly on C11/D12/E15/F21 motor range. The E20 and F44 are less optimal.

Going up to 29mm, D12/E15/F20/G35 would be nice for the next size up, thinking Estes ProLine II rockets and similar.
 

mikec

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Right, I should have included the E15 as part of the conversation as well.
The classic E15 went away when AT adopted the easier-to-manufacture molded case/closure, which has less volume for propellant.

One thing I've just realized: at one point the F20 was much pricier than the F67, but I now see that the AT list price for a two-pack of the F20 is $1 less than a two-pack of the F67, in line with the slightly lower total impulse of the F20. Of course, that's mostly because the F67 is more expensive than it was at introduction.
 

ThirstyBarbarian

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The classic E15 went away when AT adopted the easier-to-manufacture molded case/closure, which has less volume for propellant.

One thing I've just realized: at one point the F20 was much pricier than the F67, but I now see that the AT list price for a two-pack of the F20 is $1 less than a two-pack of the F67, in line with the slightly lower total impulse of the F20. Of course, that's mostly because the F67 is more expensive than it was at introduction.
Yes. When the new EconoMax F67 and G74 came out, they were WAY cheaper than the EconoJet F20, F23, F27, and F42. It seems like it was about a $20 difference per 2-pack. Now both those brands are being rolled into one EnerJet brand, and the prices have been “rationalized” so they are more in line with each other, which makes sense. It seems like they basically raised the price on EconoMax $10, and reduced the price on EconoJets $10 and met about in the middle.They all seem kind of expensive to me when EconoJets used to be around $20 per 2-pack not too many years ago, but they are pretty nice and convenient midpower single-use motors, so I use a lot of them at non-HPR launches.
 

ThirstyBarbarian

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BTW, all these motors we are talking about are 25% off retail right this moment at buyrocketmotors.com. I think it’s the black weekend cyber Monday dealio, so it probably won’t last long. Today might be the last day. The F20s and similar are $25.49, which is pretty good these days. The 24mm are less. G74 is more and require hazmat. If you do get hazmat motors, they ship hazmat free on orders over $400.
 

mikec

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They all seem kind of expensive to me when EconoJets used to be around $20 per 2-pack not too many years ago...
Yep. In Jan 2009 I bought a 2-pack of F20s from Hobbylinc for $22.19; that buyrocketmotors.com price is pretty sweet when list is $36!
 

swatkat

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I would love a nice longer-burn 29mm and 24mm option. G25 is my go-to now, but would love an analog for 24mm. "Full" E15 or "Full" F20-25.
 

ThirstyBarbarian

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I would love a nice longer-burn 29mm and 24mm option. G25 is my go-to now, but would love an analog for 24mm. "Full" E15 or "Full" F20-25.
The AT Single-use F25 is a 3.1 second burn, and almost a full F at 77.9 Ns. It’s a pretty nice motor, but not usually a very good deal.
 

rcktnut

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The AT Single-use F25 is a 3.1 second burn, and almost a full F at 77.9 Ns. It’s a pretty nice motor, but not usually a very good deal.
Those are down to 70 Ns. now with the new molded cases. I guess you get what you pay for as far as Ns. go. There are not to many full (E-G) motors out there. Lots are just over the previous designation by a few Ns. or so. Most 50% designation or less.
 

ThirstyBarbarian

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Those are down to 70 Ns. now with the new molded cases. I guess you get what you pay for as far as Ns. go. There are not to many full (E-G) motors out there. Lots are just over the previous designation by a few Ns. or so. Most 50% designation or less.
Are you saying the thrust curve and total Ns have changed on an aerotech F25 single-use?
 

rcktnut

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This is what I have: Original cert was in 1995 then had 77.9 Ns.

2020-11-30.png
 
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RobertH3

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I had a 2 pack of E15's, awesome for my Dynastar Firefox, perfect jet looking takeoff and enough power to prevent a tip at launch. E20's are a little faster. Never got to try the other ones but they sound good for reasonable midpower flights.
 

Theory

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no doubt the G35 was a great motor!

really I miss several of the older Aerotech motors: 18mm E25, 24mm E15 and G55... all were great.

that said, times change and, across the board, we have more options than we did in the late 90's. might not be our "favorites" but we can surely make do ;-)
 

CoyoteNumber2

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really I miss several of the older Aerotech motors: 18mm E25, 24mm E15 and G55... all were great.
Yes! I would love to see these again. There is nothing quite like an Alpha III on an E25 with it's audible fin flutter.
 

dpower

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The E18 and F24 RMS are fine motors, as are the F32 SU motors. My understanding is that the E20 is identical to the recently discontinued E15, just branded differently. I hadn't heard EconoJets will be price reduced to match the F67, but that sure would be welcome - it's hard to justify paying more for the F20 & F27 at this point.
 

Theory

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it's hard to justify paying more for the F20 & F27 at this point.
would say that for the entire econo-jet line. they can be nearly $20 a pop for an F motor. nothing "ecano" about that

unless im mistken and "ecano" isnt meant to translate to economical...
 

AeroTech

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The former Econojet motors are now $17 each retail. I'm sure you can find them for less than that.

would say that for the entire econo-jet line. they can be nearly $20 a pop for an F motor. nothing "ecano" about that

unless im mistken and "ecano" isnt meant to translate to economical...
 

ThirstyBarbarian

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would say that for the entire econo-jet line. they can be nearly $20 a pop for an F motor. nothing "ecano" about that

unless im mistken and "ecano" isnt meant to translate to economical...
You can find them for about $13 each for the F motors. I think part of the “economical“ branding concept is that they are single-use, so you don’t have to buy hardware, and they ship without hazmat (except fo the G74, which is a good example of my theory that Aerotech never misses an opportunity to screw up their branding).

I know you can get cheaper F motors, but you need to be willing to invest in the hardware and the time to build each motor.
 

AeroTech

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The F44W and G74W were previously branded under the "Economax" name...the point of that brand was not necessarily that they were hazmat-free but that they delivered the maximum total impulse in their particular casing sizes, at a price that was comparable to the E16 and F15 BP motors. The F67W is a variation on that theme, in that it produces the maximum total impulse using 30 grams of propellant.

You can find them for about $13 each for the F motors. I think part of the “economical“ branding concept is that they are single-use, so you don’t have to buy hardware, and they ship without hazmat (except fo the G74, which is a good example of my theory that Aerotech never misses an opportunity to screw up their branding).

I know you can get cheaper F motors, but you need to be willing to invest in the hardware and the time to build each motor.
 
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Bowman

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Back in the early 2000s as a BAR, The F20/G35 were fun motors to launch large but built-like-typical-Estes-kits off of 1/4" launch rods. Then the F21 Econojet made an appearance a bit later, bringing the fun directly to 24mm Estes models. Have a Stormcaster, for example, that's been launched multiple times on F21s.

My oldest son is started to show a glimmer of interest, so for the first time in a decade, looking what's available in the E-G range. Bummed that the F21 is gone, replaced solely by the F44 which burns for under a second. In the 29mm category, glad to see the F20/F23, but the rest are all fast-burning Fs, and no G35. Yes, there are the competition motors like the F10 and G25, but they are nearly double the cost.

Any chance we'll see more white lightning Economax/Econojet 24mm-29mm motors from Aerotech again like the F21 and G35?
I too like the F21 and was happy to discover I still have two packs of them :). No G35 though.
I also have a few packs of the D13W and D21T languishing in my low power bin.
 

AeroTech

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Actually the closest motors to the F21 are the 24 x 95mm F32T and the F30FJ. The F44 is a shorter motor.

Back in the early 2000s as a BAR, The F20/G35 were fun motors to launch large but built-like-typical-Estes-kits off of 1/4" launch rods. Then the F21 Econojet made an appearance a bit later, bringing the fun directly to 24mm Estes models. Have a Stormcaster, for example, that's been launched multiple times on F21s.

My oldest son is started to show a glimmer of interest, so for the first time in a decade, looking what's available in the E-G range. Bummed that the F21 is gone, replaced solely by the F44 which burns for under a second. In the 29mm category, glad to see the F20/F23, but the rest are all fast-burning Fs, and no G35. Yes, there are the competition motors like the F10 and G25, but they are nearly double the cost.

Any chance we'll see more white lightning Economax/Econojet 24mm-29mm motors from Aerotech again like the F21 and G35?
 

hball55

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I miss all the motors that are no longer on the certified list for which I have squirreled away a private horde.

Some of those motors I hated because you had to scrape off the label in order to get them to fit your motor tube.
 

dpower

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The former Econojet motors are now $17 each retail. I'm sure you can find them for less than that.
I didn't realize that, thank you! I see some online retailers have changed their prices, others haven't. I'll have to check with my LHS to see how they're going to handle packs on their shelves (he has been buying direct from AT, as none of his distributors carry AT). Looks like I'll be buying F27s again!
 
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