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jackman

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Hello all,
I'm assembling a Sunward Screamer which has a tricky dual canted motor mount. You can see Jal3's assembly here: http://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?t=553

Rather than taping the motor mount together and waiting for the glue to set I used a hot glue gun and "tacked it" temporarily while the permanent glue joint setup. It got me to wondering why no one mentions the use of a hot glue gun in their assembly.

Any thoughts?
 

Iceman1979

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Personally I like to use thin CA to tack things in place. Just my 2 cents.
 

Graham Orr

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motor mounts and such can often get hot. thus, hot glue melts and your rocket comes apart.

for tacking parts, however, i don't see a problem
 

El Cheapo

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I believe he's only using a small bit of it in regards to tacking the pieces together while the other glue he is using dries so it'll stay in place better.

I'm with Iceman, get a small tip for your CA bottle and wic just the smallest bit on each end. Works great for fins as well.
 

Micromeister

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Bad habbits come from trying to use improper material. Hotglues simply have no business around Model rockets of any size.

someone uses hot glue for tacking, the next guy say's Humm if we can use it to tack why not just use it. I've seen this happen with cub scout den leaders, it can happen here.

HOT glues have no purpose in model rocketry. Please refrain from introducing potential problem material that already have a very bad track record;)
 

jflis

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Bad habbits come from trying to use improper material. Hotglues simply have no business around Model rockets of any size.

someone uses hot glue for tacking, the next guy say's Humm if we can use it to tack why not just use it. I've seen this happen with cub scout den leaders, it can happen here.

HOT glues have no purpose in model rocketry. Please refrain from introducing potential problem material that already have a very bad track record;)
Well, now... every rule of thumb has its exception...

Decaffeinator
UFFO
Espresso.... :D

jim
 

troj

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Rather than taping the motor mount together and waiting for the glue to set I used a hot glue gun and "tacked it" temporarily while the permanent glue joint setup. It got me to wondering why no one mentions the use of a hot glue gun in their assembly.

Any thoughts?
It'll work just fine, especially for that purpose.

And, as Jim indicated, hot glue is used in the assembly of some rockets.

-Kevin
 

El Cheapo

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I wouldn't worry in the least bit considering the context in which he's using it.

I purchased a kit off of Ebay a year or so ago called the Cloudburst. It's some fella putting the parts together and boxing them up. It looked decent from the pictures. Once I got it, the BT's are like an opaque plastick mailing tube, he nose cone is a plastic champagne flute and comes with five 2 x 1" x 24" pieces of construction construction streamer for recovery as well a decent length of 1/4" Elastic. It did have very straight pre-cut ply fins and a 24mm engine mount w/decent centering rings. Anyway, he states in his home printed instructions (which are descriptive enough even for a beginner) that if you don't want to wait for glue to dry, you can use a hot glue gun for the fins.

Now, I wouldn't go doing that myself but if he's selling the kit and stating so in his instructions, it may work just fine.

I plan on using a full-length stuffer tube and making it into a night flyer. Should be really nice.

Here is his picture from the Ebay Ad

44bf_1.jpg
 

jj94

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I've used hot glue before and I don't really like it. I tend to prefer CA. It's quicker, easier, cleaner, stronger, and more convenient.
 

Micromeister

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Well, now... every rule of thumb has its exception...

Decaffeinator
UFFO
Espresso.... :D

jim
Very True Jim!
If we're using styrofoam cups and styrofoam sheet for construction materials some "alternative" adhesives have to be considered, but we were not talking about such unique construction projects were we?

But as cheapo just showed; If someones doing it in one area, some dingbat is gonna try it with and on regular material that end up unsafe, creating a hazard to everyone around them. Sometimes it's better NOT to promote a certain things.

Cheapo: You can't possibly believe that: Just because some internet "GUY" says its OK in his home made instructions, doesn't make it so. HOT Glue just shouldn't be used in normal model construction on or around fin or motor mounts. look at the melting point of even the "High Temp" hot glues compared to the temps generated by our motors... the fins loosen and fly off..Quickly. it's not that they might its that they will!

I just don't understand the "instant" hold thing anyway. All one has to do is use "the double glue joint method" and you have nearly instant grab with plain old elmers white glue. It's been published in every Handbook of Model Rocketry is the 60's. it produces dryed glue joints stronger the the materials it is holding. and No clamping needed. It's simply amazing all the very good techniques that have been forgotten:(
 

El Cheapo

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John,

All I was saying in regards to Jackman's original post was that the amount he is using shouldn't be an issue. I think he was referring to just a tiny dot to hold things in place while the white or wood glue dries.

I agree there are several other methods out there, one mentioned by Iceman and myself as well as the double glue joint you mentioned. Not everyone, myself included, has been in the hobby as long as you have and don't know all the tricks just yet. I think your point is very valid but that you are, in fact, coming off a bit harsh.

I did state that I would not use that method myself. I also said in regards to the instructions from the kit I purchased is that it (perhaps I should have emphasized) "may work just fine" BUT I WOULD NOT USE HOT GLUE
 

rokitflite

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Hmph... Hot glue is holding the receiver/servo board and the battery down in my B RC RG... 22 flights so far. Not what I'd recommend to hold the motor pod or wings on, but it did have its place in my build.

4.jpg
 

Graham Orr

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I don't think anyone on here is advocating using hot glue for structural members...

But one thing that I have to say is that there is a lot of alarmism going on here. Let's talk about where not to use hot glue rather than just blanket the whole issue and never discuss why. I really hate this blanketing that lots of rocket people do. These "guidelines" keep people safe - that's true - but for people who really know what they are doing these "guidelines" are frustrating.

So I say, as an advanced builder, use whatever is easy to tack. I'm not worried about you *accidentally* deciding that hot glue is adequate for structural stuff.
 

spacecadet

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I have to disagree with a general prohibition.
I've used it to attach card fins to a clear plastic fuselage that just wouldn't have taken another sort of glue. The fins were tabbed and it wasn't minimum-diameter, so there wasn't much direct heat from the motor near the glue. Anyway, hot glue takes a while to melt- a model motor is burnt out in a second or two. So for speed and convenience, with tabbed fins, it's okay.
The main reason I don't use it much is that a glued fin snaps off neatly on a bad landing; a hot-glued fin bends and is much more difficult to repair. So it's only really suitable for short, stiff fins, rather than the long swept-back ones I tend to use to get my CP right. It's also not very pretty on a small and beautiful model and is too flexible on its own without tabbing. But I think it does have its place.
 

bguffer

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July 4th, 2006 - 03:00 After having downed a number of beers i built an Estes Executioner and Commanche III (my first rockets in about 15 years). I realized i only had hot glue gun. Gluing couplers into body tubes and gluing motor mounts in was accomplished somehow. Cursing was involved. More beer was involved. I do not recommend anyone ever do that (the hot glue). 05:30 i was done building the rockets.

The Executioner has survived at least 3 descents without its parachute, and is in fine condition as far as areas where glue were used.
A Commanche booster lost a couple fins when the booster hit pavement on recovery.

Here is the Executioner 2 years after being being glue gunned together:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgLBQhhJMcA&feature=channel_page
 

Gillard

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my brother has used a hot glue gun - it was one of his first builds, and it made a terrible mess, i have always use CA gel for tacking into plave - much miore viscous than normal thick CA.
 

troj

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But one thing that I have to say is that there is a lot of alarmism going on here. Let's talk about where not to use hot glue rather than just blanket the whole issue and never discuss why. I really hate this blanketing that lots of rocket people do.
Yup!

Rather than beat someone about the head for coming up with an idea, a rational response makes more sense.

Plus absolutes have this almost absolute tendency to be proven wrong, somewhere along the way.

These "guidelines" keep people safe - that's true - but for people who really know what they are doing these "guidelines" are frustrating.
Not to mention they horribly stifle innovation and new ideas.

So I say, as an advanced builder, use whatever is easy to tack. I'm not worried about you *accidentally* deciding that hot glue is adequate for structural stuff.
The thing is, used in the right places, hot glue can be used structurally.

I'd be willing to bet I could build an Alpha clone that could fly with nothing but hot glue used for assembly. Certain parts, such as the motor mount, would be interesting to get glued into place, but I bet it can be done.

-Kevin
 

Graham Orr

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Kevin-
I definitely agree with 99% of what you're saying, as you to me.

The advanced builder would likely not use hot glue, however, because an advanced builder would recognize its poor specific strength and creep characteristics. :)

But yeah, I see what you're saying. If I were to calculate the vM stress on a joint and find that hot glue was adequate...well, maybe I'd use hot glue. However, I'd likely be safe and use something else or redesign the part to be more efficient.
 

Pat_B

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I own a polyurethane glue gun and the poly glue dries much harder than the typical glue stick. I wouldn't use it myself in building but I did test it last year on an engine mount, out of curiousity, and it worked just fine.

It can come in really handy for temporary tacking. You can just put a glob of glue down and that will harden in a minute. Later, that glob can be snapped off.

I found that I use my glue gun for temporary tacking more than anything else. There's a big difference between the high end poly glues and the glue sticks you buy at Michaels.
 

jflis

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John,

Just ribbing you there :)

I agree with the opinion that, for the MOST part, you shouldn't use hot glue for rocket assembly. It *may* work for tacking things in place while the real glue dries, but I certainly wouldn't use it to, say, glue a fin on a rocket.

There are many problems, the biggest being that just the heat from a hot day will soften the glue. The other problem is that there isn't any *real* adhesion from hot glue. For those of you who solder, hot glue is like a "cold solder joint". Holds well enough until you actually stress it.

The reason it is good for foam (such as rockets like the decaffeinator) is that the heat of the glue actually melts the foam slightly, providing some real bonding. However, even then it doesn't take a lot of stress to snap the joint as anyone who owns a decaffeinator knows :)

fwiw :)
jim
 

Micromeister

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John,

Just ribbing you there :)

I agree with the opinion that, for the MOST part, you shouldn't use hot glue for rocket assembly. It *may* work for tacking things in place while the real glue dries, but I certainly wouldn't use it to, say, glue a fin on a rocket.

There are many problems, the biggest being that just the heat from a hot day will soften the glue. The other problem is that there isn't any *real* adhesion from hot glue. For those of you who solder, hot glue is like a "cold solder joint". Holds well enough until you actually stress it.

The reason it is good for foam (such as rockets like the decaffeinator) is that the heat of the glue actually melts the foam slightly, providing some real bonding. However, even then it doesn't take a lot of stress to snap the joint as anyone who owns a decaffeinator knows :)

fwiw :)
jim
Jim:
I knew you were;) and kind of knew you were trying to say there are instances were this stuff "could" be used. "exceptions to every rule".

But Kevin:
NO matter what the item, technique or material we speak about on this forum, there will undoubtably be someone that will have tried or had some small experience with it. That doesn't make it a Smart or even good choice to be discussed.
I'm going to point out AGAIN, this forum is read by LOTS of inexperienced, unkowning folks, many of whom are on the younger side, many others who are reading this stuff for the first time. It's not stifling innovation or new ideas to say Flatly NO to things that we Already KNOW don't work. and further can cause potential hazards to themselfs and others.

The thread author makes no mention of use of High Temp or Poly hot glues. Gives NO guidence about advanced techniques. Simple states "Anybody use a hot guy gun"?
For the majority of those reading this forum would indicate your everyday, run of the mill low temp crafters glue and hot glue gun.
Sure there are exceptions, but that's NO excuess for Not saying Wait a minute!! this is NOT a good idea.

Which I'll state again just for the record:
"FOR ALL Normal Materials Model Rocket Construction, Hot Melt Glue & guns..even the hi-temp type easily available, SHOULD NOT be used period."
There are far to many much better glue and adhesive choices.

I can state with some authority, I've personally seen quite a few HOT Glued together "Alpha and Alpha-III's Fall apart in mid air, or worse have the motor mount shoot through the body just about the time the model leaves the rod. Enough to know we (NARHAMS) no longer allow ANY hot glue constucted model to fly at the public rocket launches at Goddard Space Flight center in Greenbelt, MD.
Could someone put one together that'll last a launch or two? Possibly but that's not the point. it's simply the Worst possible, extremely poor choice of adhesives.

I'd also have to say; Most Advanced Builders think twice before putting Iffy stuff out in open forums. We use a lot of strange things from time to time but ya just don't give that sort of stuff to the general public willy nilly.
Innovation and New Ideas are always being looked for, but ya don't give it to the kids until It's a PROVEN safe and reliable method, material or technique.
 
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shreadvector

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http://home.earthlink.net/~mebowitz/safety.pdf

After one of the last rounds of endless discussion about this on the last version of TRF, I revised the wording of our club's Safety Advisory to state in tiny letters that some kits can use Hot melt GLue, but I personally find it a liability lawsuit waiting to happen. How to avoid this problem? Simple: for those special kits with styrofoam parts that recommend it, state clearly in the instructions that this adhesive is NEVER to be used in normal model rocekts where the heat of the motor or ejection charge may soften it and that it is only being recommended in this kit because of the styrofoam parts.

This is not a concern for non-structural applications such as servo mounting far away from heat, or fins on a slow moving plastic body rocket like a crayon or 2l bottle.

the Safety Advisory is based on THOUSANDS of models being checked in at our launches with the major problems identified. Dozens of youth groups have shown up with rockets built with adhesives that allow the fins to fall off, motors to shoot through or rockets to catch fire. Worst cases are "Duco Cement", "non-toxic plastic cement", hot melt glue, shoe goo, etc.
 

Pat_B

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Shoo Goo? Maybe they were making a Nike Ajax.
 

troj

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I'm going to point out AGAIN, this forum is read by LOTS of inexperienced, unkowning folks, many of whom are on the younger side, many others who are reading this stuff for the first time. It's not stifling innovation or new ideas to say Flatly NO to things that we Already KNOW don't work. and further can cause potential hazards to themselfs and others.
So, with that viewpoint, any discussion of something that shouldn't be done by someone who's not an "expert" should be stifled?

Interesting perspective, since I've seen some very foolish things, including safety code violations, advocated by self-proclaimed "experts".

-Kevin
 

kjohnson

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The thread author makes no mention of use of High Temp or Poly hot glues. Gives NO guidence about advanced techniques. Simple states "Anybody use a hot guy gun"?
For the majority of those reading this forum would indicate your everyday, run of the mill low temp crafters glue and hot glue gun.
.


Actually, the thread starter made a reasonably detailed description of what he used the hot glue for-

"Rather than taping the motor mount together and waiting for the glue to set I used a hot glue gun and "tacked it" temporarily while the permanent glue joint setup. It got me to wondering why no one mentions the use of a hot glue gun in their assembly."

I read that and thought- interesting way to use a glue gun in place of tape to hold something together while the real glue dried. I did not read that to say he used hot glue exclusively as a structural attachment on his rocket, nor saying that's what everyone should do.

kj
 

Graham Orr

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So, with that viewpoint, any discussion of something that shouldn't be done by someone who's not an "expert" should be stifled?

Interesting perspective, since I've seen some very foolish things, including safety code violations, advocated by self-proclaimed "experts".

-Kevin
I think that if you show up to an NAR/TRA launch, you MUST adhere to the safety code of both the NAR/TRA and club, even if you are a professional. To a certain extent, advanced rocketeers set an example for less experienced fliers and thus at family events, the activity should adhere strictly to rules.

Otherwise, professionals can do whatever they want (legally), obviously.
 

jflis

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Jackman,

First, welcome to the forum :)

Second, Don't take much of this thread too personally. We tend to be a passionate and very opinionated bunch :)

I noticed that you have 7 posts and am not sure if you were here during the original TRF. I just want to be sure that you aren't dissuaded from posting due to the intensity of this thread.

Your use of hot glue to tack things in place is certainly not an issue. Most folks I know use CA (super glue) for that, but to each their own, as they say :)

Most of the jabber here is about the idea of using hot glue for general rocket assembly and, as you can see, Hot Glue is a Hot Topic :D

fwiw,
jim

Hello all,
I'm assembling a Sunward Screamer which has a tricky dual canted motor mount. You can see Jal3's assembly here: http://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?t=553

Rather than taping the motor mount together and waiting for the glue to set I used a hot glue gun and "tacked it" temporarily while the permanent glue joint setup. It got me to wondering why no one mentions the use of a hot glue gun in their assembly.

Any thoughts?
 

Pippen

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Second, Don't take much of this thread too personally. We tend to be a passionate and very opinionated bunch :)
Jackman, I'll second what Jim said: people are definitely passionate about their adhesives around here. The upside to hanging out with the adhesive obsessives is that whenever something around here breaks I just hop on and ask what to use to repair it. :)
 

troj

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I think that if you show up to an NAR/TRA launch, you MUST adhere to the safety code of both the NAR/TRA and club, even if you are a professional. To a certain extent, advanced rocketeers set an example for less experienced fliers and thus at family events, the activity should adhere strictly to rules.
Agreed, whole-heartedly!

Following the Safety Code for the launch you're participating in isn't an option -- it's mandatory.

You're right about the examples, too. I've seen some really great examples, and I've seen some that just make me shake my head.

-Kevin
 

El Cheapo

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Okay, here's a thought. This thread has been up for three days and not single reply to our comments from the original auther. This is a theory.... Could it be possible Jackman is jackin' with us, sittin' back laughing his &*&%$ off saying to himself, "who the heck would use hot glue on a rocket? This hilarious the way these dorks jump on a topic and turn on themselves.....ROFLMAO"
 

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