# anybody experience Pro38 two grain issues?

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#### tnrocketman

My casing was recovered from the MC2 field thanks to the patience of Gaston Cole (who I now owe $10 ). According to their report, the casing is scorched/warped. Ray Cole said there had been some discussion of issues with Pro38 when they came back with the case. Anyone know what these issues might be? Next month at our launch I will get the casing in person, and I will be pursuing a warranty claim... #### bsexton ##### Well-Known Member I have flown the 2-grain H Pro38 motors at least 6 times and they have been flawless...so far! #### Ryan S. ##### Well-Known Member I have seen the plastic split and the case get minorly damaged, but nothing in particular I can think of....might just be a one time thign #### Justy ##### Well-Known Member Cesaroni is not responsible for casing deformation incurred from a 3000' drop without laundry. The only problems I've heard of regarding Cesaroni motors was a frequent problem with the "classic" 64.5g 1-grain Pro38 reloads (G60). I heard it was attributed to the wrong igniter being shipped with the motor... something about it jamming in the nozzle when the motor started, causing an overpressure. It's a non-issue now: the entire 64.5g grain line has been discontinued, in favour of the 62.5g "US Spec" grains. #### ClusterWiz ##### Well-Known Member I have seen many failures with pro38 cases. I have seen it happen twice to the same guy (I think with a 3 grain.) where about 1 sec. into the burn all the grains blew out of the crimping on the casing and melted and burnt his quantum tubing. I just saw a rocket on Sunday at LDRS that the nozzle was blown out of the 6 grain case. Well since there was no pressure built up the motor burnt on the pad for about 1.5 - 2 min. burning up the rocket and melting the casing. He brought back a rocket with no motor tube, what looked like a 2 grain case, a nozzle and a pile of aluminum that was melted. And also at LDRS i walked into Wildman's trailer and I could see a cattoed pro38 case. My dad has sworn off by them. I dont really like them either, not much of a show compared to Aerotech or AMW. I will post a pics of the cattoes later. #### bsexton ##### Well-Known Member Originally posted by ClusterWiz I have seen many failures with pro38 cases. I am really surprised to hear this. I started getting into High Power at the time AT was having all of it's troubles and Pro38 was about the only thing I could buy. I have flown the 1, 2 and 3 grain motors with not so much as a hickup. In fact I am planning to get my Level 2 certification with the 5 grain "baby" J. For me they are the easiest to prep and most reliable high power motors I have flown -- knock on wood! #### n3tjm ##### Papa Elf I too... am not much of a fan of Pro38... Their loads are way overpriced... their standard formula is boring... and I have no Leup so getting SS is hard to do. #### Donaldsrockets ##### Well-Known Member Originally posted by n3tjm I too... am not much of a fan of Pro38... Their loads are way overpriced... their standard formula is boring... and I have no Leup so getting SS is hard to do. I agree with Doug on the price issue with these loads. I used to have a Pro38 1 grain case but I eventually ended up selling it on ROL.$19.50 for a what!!! G MOTOR!!! You can get a G80 or almost 2 G64's for that.

I also agree with Doug on the Smokey Sam's. They are awesome motors but I do not intend to get a LEUP just so I can use them.

On the other hand, I've only seen them fail when a few of my club members tried to use them without the case.

#### cls

I have to agree that the Ricearoni motors are overpriced. the cost of the case is nearly comparable to AT/DR but egads the retainer ring - $60 for an aluminum NUT?!?? but they light instantly so are excellent for clusters. imagine lighting a cluster of blackjack motors (although I have seen it done successfully!) also I like the way the igniter positively "snaps" in to the pyro grain which is molded in to the reload grain. if they were half price I'd fly twice as many! #### Ryan S. ##### Well-Known Member Originally posted by n3tjm I too... am not much of a fan of Pro38... Their loads are way overpriced... their standard formula is boring... and I have no Leup so getting SS is hard to do. only in the smaller sizes, and remember, because they do not use HTPB they have a higher ISP than other consumer motors. #### Anthony Cesaroni ##### Well-Known Member Originally posted by cls I have to agree that the Ricearoni motors are overpriced. the cost of the case is nearly comparable to AT/DR but egads the retainer ring -$60 for an aluminum NUT?!??

but they light instantly so are excellent for clusters. imagine lighting a cluster of blackjack motors (although I have seen it done successfully!)

also I like the way the igniter positively "snaps" in to the pyro grain which is molded in to the reload grain.

if they were half price I'd fly twice as many!
I'll ignore the typo on my last name. :-/ Pro38 G motors were never intended to compete with smaller caliber model rocket motors in the same impulse on a price basis. The idea was to market an HPR like system that would familiarize model rocket users with these types of motors and ease the transition into HPR. In addition the motors feature an adjustable delay system, instant ignition with a supplied igniter and simple assembly. This relives a lot of pressure when going for an L-1 shot. The G is still one of our most popular small caliber motors.

The aluminum nut that is referred to is the the aft retainer. It's precision machined stainless steel part made from billet material and is used only on the 54mm product. I'll send you a drawing if you like and you can have your local machine shop quote you on making some if you need a reality check.

As far as reliability is concerned, we shipped close to 10,000 HPR motors in 2003 but failures can happen. We back up all our products and we have an excellent record regarding warranty issues. Continuous product improvement is a priority for us as well. HPR is not our companies core business but we strongly support the hobby and invest our commercial and industrial technology into HPR products as part of this process.

I appreciate the product feedback from this thread. Look for more products in the near future.

Anthony J. Cesaroni
President/CEO
Cesaroni Technology/Cesaroni Aerospace
https://www.cesaronitech.com/
(905) 887-2370 x222 Toronto
(410) 571-8292 Annapolis

#### Donaldsrockets

##### Well-Known Member
I'm not dissing Cesaroni motors. After all, I did like the G69 1 grain motor that I used but my Small Endeavour really needed more oomph than it could provide.

I really wanted the G79SS but since I have no LEUP, I could not purchase one.

I would however like to someday put my Stealth up on an I212SS. That would look cool.

That is if Carl didn't use 'em all up in his upscale Deuce and Tres!!!

#### Stymye

##### Well-Known Member
I've launched quite a few Cesaroni 2 grains not one bit of trouble
so far...I bought a small quantity at a discount so the price wasn't too bad that way...

#### Rocketman248

##### Well-Known Member
I really like the look of the ProX propellent. It looks more "missile-like." As a fire controlman in the Navy, that's a big thing for me.

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love the other motors. Redline is my favorite. But you can't beat ProX for clustering. I had a design rolling around in my head that called for 5 38mm motors lit on the ground. When I get back from Japan, maybe i'll go for it.

#### tnrocketman

##### Well-Known Member
Originally posted by Anthony Cesaroni
As far as reliability is concerned, we shipped close to 10,000 HPR motors in 2003 but failures can happen. We back up all our products and we have an excellent record regarding warranty issues.
Anthony, let me say I really have had excellent results with Pro38-- not a glitch with my 3 grain system, and I do love being able to customize the delay. I also know from other flyers here about (Chuck Pierce, to name one) that you really do stand behind your product well.

When I get the actual case and remaining reload in hand, I will be contacting you (probably e-mail some pictures) to see if there is a warranty claim. I didn't know you hung around here yet, but it is great to interact with vendors and manufacturers directly in an unpolluted forum.!

#### lalligood

##### Well-Known Member
I too have had unbridled success with all of the Pro38 motors I have purchased & used.

Pro38 do indeed make for an easy transition to HPR, at least for me it did! I wanted something easy & as faultproof as possible...regardless of the cost when it came to getting into HPR. For a few extra bucks, I was all but guaranteed to accomplish that with the Pro38 system.
Product availability was another strong factor in my reason for purchasing it as well. That also ties in with the user-adjustable delay settings because that meant I just needed to find the reload I need...not a package with the reload with the correct delay.
And the ignitors are top notch too. It's not very often I've heard someone bring it up but the ones that come with the Pro38/54 reloads never fail to ignite the first time. 'Nuff said

Anthony,
Welcome to TRF. We look forward to hearing from (& sharing with) you about your products!

...just a happy Pro38 customer

#### Daedalus

##### Well-Known Member
I would agree the 1g is too expensive but is a very good reload - like me, you have a choice - don't fly it if you don't like the price. Personally I spend a little more and fly the 2g

I have never seen a pro38 fail as such, though there was an ignitor problem a while back which Cesaroni promptly corected. Only problem is seeing one fired without a case.

I have used 2, 3 and 4g loads and think they are very good quality and high performance - only downside is the SS loads leave a mess on the rail as they are so smokey. For clustering and staging they are the only choice as they are instant on motors.

Saw a cluster of P54 2g & 4*P38 1g in an Aries at UKRA last month - all ground started, all ignited for a brilliant flight.

#### firemanup

##### Well-Known Member
I like the motors, allthough i've only flown 2. One for a cert flight after two AT delay blowby's and the H153 got me my level 1 cert with a perfect motor burn.

The other was a J295 54mm 3 grain i believe it was, flew perfectly, liked the noise but it was missing the fire and smoke i've come to like from white lightening..

I saw the Pro 38 motor CATO that an earlier poster said he saw the casing of in Wildman's trailer. It was a spectacular CATO at that..

Price wise i like the AT stuff much better, i like the different propellant choices and having gone to alot of electronic deployments now the delay grains don't matter to me as much.

White lightening and redline are great, seems the SS loads beat the Black Jacks though in several areas.

Full house J loads and above the Pro 38/54 stuff seems to be competatively priced to me. Below that they are significantly more expensive though which keeps me from flying as much.

That said, the next motor i'd really really like to fly if and when i have the money is the Pro 54 K445...however an AT K550 will be a very, very close second behind it...

#### daveyfire

##### Piled Higher and Deeper
I love 'em, they're a little pricey but they are incredibly easy to use. When I want to "load 'em up and light 'em up" (Sonny Thompson's phrase), Cesaroni is what I grab for. The instant-on ignition is also a plus for me -- it's what I'm going to use when I do my 7.5" Patriot. The plan is for an L850W on the ground with two I350SS lit by a G-Wiz at launch detect, and then two J400SS airstarts after L850W burnout with a Timer2N. That's the idea knocking around in my head, at least I wouldn't dare try that with AT motors in a rocket that big -- who knows what may light when, and how reliably with low-current e-matches. I've seen it done, but why bother? That sounds like a really cool flight as is!

#### tnrocketman

##### Well-Known Member
Just a follow up note-- Pro38 customer service is taking care of my 2 grain problem.

I expected no less-- anybody on the fence about Anthony Cesaroni/Pro 38 should be reassured that their product is first rate, and issues are dealt with in a first class manner!

Originally posted by Anthony Cesaroni
I'll ignore the typo on my last name. :-/ Pro38 G motors were never intended to compete with smaller caliber model rocket motors in the same impulse on a price basis. The idea was to market an HPR like system that would familiarize model rocket users with these types of motors and ease the transition into HPR. In addition the motors feature an adjustable delay system, instant ignition with a supplied igniter and simple assembly. This relives a lot of pressure when going for an L-1 shot. The G is still one of our most popular small caliber motors.

The aluminum nut that is referred to is the the aft retainer. It's precision machined stainless steel part made from billet material and is used only on the 54mm product. I'll send you a drawing if you like and you can have your local machine shop quote you on making some if you need a reality check.

As far as reliability is concerned, we shipped close to 10,000 HPR motors in 2003 but failures can happen. We back up all our products and we have an excellent record regarding warranty issues. Continuous product improvement is a priority for us as well. HPR is not our companies core business but we strongly support the hobby and invest our commercial and industrial technology into HPR products as part of this process.

I appreciate the product feedback from this thread. Look for more products in the near future.

Anthony J. Cesaroni
President/CEO
Cesaroni Technology/Cesaroni Aerospace
https://www.cesaronitech.com/
(905) 887-2370 x222 Toronto
(410) 571-8292 Annapolis
I have to back Anthony up here. My first experience with a CTI product was the Pro54 3-grain motor, and I certed L2 with it.

After worrying about setting up my dual deployment, and suffering major pre-cert jitters, it was a relief to not have to fiddle with a bunch of o-rings, spacers, and cardboard tubes to build my motor. I was nervous enough without having to deal with that! Motor worked like a charm...and I got my cert too.

#### Chilly

##### Well-Known Member
I currently use AT 29mm reloads, which economically is a very good deal. Once you get into 38mm J reloads, CTI makes a lot of sense and is what I intend to use for my L2 cert.

They look like very well-engineered motors. Ease of assembly, ignition, cleanup, and delay choice are obvious benefits. And economically, the 6-grain case costs half of what you'd spend for an AT 38/720 casing with reload costs comparable to a J350. So right away I can get two Pro38 "J" flights for the same total cost of a 38/720 with one reload.

#### North Star

##### Well-Known Member
Firstly I must state I just love Aerotech White Lightning propellant. Nothing else comes near for me. The problem is - we can't get AT in the UK any more so most of us are using ProXX motors. The ignition is superbly reliable and I have only seen a couple of catos, one of which was entirely due to operator error.

I, however had a spectacular failure of a Pro54 K570 in a 7.5" scratchbuilt called Wizz-Ard , a sort of beefed up Warlock. As it launched it veered off at approx 45 degrees and as it retuned under a successful chute deployment , the rocket was seen to be on fire. When it was recovered and examined, the motor case had ruptured just in front of the rear closure and had shared the thrust between the nozzle and the hole which burnt through the side of the rocket.

Our dealer here, Pete's Rockets replaced the motor and gave me a reload (on behalf of CTi) so I have no complaint about customer service. However I would like a bright flaming, white smokin' propellant from them

Here's a link to a site with piccies of the recovered rocket, taken by Mike Roberts and called 'Toast' :

They are on page 3

https://www.rokits.org/gallery/klob2003