Any interesting CATO stories?

[CTRockets]

Wow Jim, those pictures are pretty amazing! Regarding your story, did they ever figure out what went wrong? Was it motor failure? I saw my experience as a way for me to learn from My mistake which caused the failure. As evident from my story it wasnt a motor failure but a motor mount failure because of my large oversight.

 

[jadebox]

Oh, here's a dramatic video of an Estes D motor failure. It was actually the first "high-speed video" I made.

https://www.payloadbay.com/video-7927.html

-- Roger

 

[jflis]

Wow Jim, those pictures are pretty amazing! Regarding your story, did they ever figure out what went wrong? Was it motor failure? I saw my experience as a way for me to learn from My mistake which caused the failure. As evident from my story it wasnt a motor failure but a motor mount failure because of my large oversight.

It was a motor failure, pure and simple. heck of a day though

 

[cornyl]

This is my design Reckless Abandon. This event took place at the PARA club launch. First stage exploded about 10 feet off the pad. The arrow points to the engine. Fortunately it was enough to ignite the second stage D-12-5 for a nice flight. Landed in deep corn. Was lucky to find it.

 

[MysticalRockets]

Here we go again....

Cato is not an acronym. It is simply a slang shorthand abbreviation for catastrophic failure. Discussed endlessly in other threads on the previous TRF and recently on YORF where numerous rolcketry old timers supported this fact and others refused to accept the truth.

https://forums.rocketshoppe.com/showthread.php?t=4411

I would suggest fixing this thread and taking any and all discussion of the beleif in the false acronym over to that thread on YORF. no point in 'stinking up this place'.

In this case, you are COMPLETELY wrong.

Connecticut
Area
Tripoli
Organization

So, it is not a false acronym. Perhaps you'd like some salt with that crow?

 

[jadebox]

BTW, you can view dozens of photos I've taken of "CATOs and Crunches" at:

https://www.payloadbay.com/gallery/v/other/CATO/



-- Roger

 

[Mikus]

Sorry, Im new here. Didnt mean to cause any controversy. I should have looked in other forums before posting.

No. Consider it no more than hazing the new guy. You'll get used to ignoring it at some point.

I once had a Estes E9 spit out the nozzle and my Rubicon just sat there spewing burning goop onto the blast deflector. It was a borrowed pad so I felt so embarrassed and sad although it wasn't really my fault and there was nothing I could have done about it. It didn't help that the owner promply packed up and left just afterwards but oh well, now I pretty much only use my gear.

Amazingly the plastic nozzles on the underside of the Rubicon didn't melt from the CATO.

 

[Jamski]

Oh, here's a dramatic video of an Estes D motor failure. It was actually the first "high-speed video" I made.

https://www.payloadbay.com/video-7927.html

-- Roger

Wow. I had one happen that looked just like that, except mine stuck on the rod. I've got a video of that and as soon as I find it, I'll post it. That's two Eagles gone for me. The first one glided over a highway and got run over. I think I'll try another brand next, maybe a Flat Cat...

I had a SkyWriter pop a B6 a few months ago. Got that on video too; as near as I can figure it blew the nozzle out.

 

[MysticalRockets]

Sorry, Im new here. Didnt mean to cause any controversy. I should have looked in other forums before posting.

Don't worry. It's just Fred over-reacting as usual.

 

[Peartree]

Now, now, let's not start beating up on Fred either.

 

[MarkII]

[...]
PS: Based on the experiences, seems like this is more a HPR thread than LPR,

That's because Estes D13's and FSI F motors went OOP long before everyone had their own camcorders!

Mark \\.

 

[MarkII]

Who has a great [propulsion device failure] story that involves a black powder [propulsion device]? With pictures, if possible.

EDIT: D'oh! I should have read further along in the thread!

I hesitate to report this, but I have yet to personally experience the dreaded "c--o." Keep in mind though, that I don't launch all that often, and so I'm probably a few hundred to a few thousand launches behind the rest of you.

Mark \\.

 

[FatBoy]

...I hesitate to report this, but I have yet to personally experience the dreaded "c--o."...

I'm with you Mark. I haven't had a Cato yet either (knock on wood filler). I know it will happen some day, and I hope it is the day I remember to bring the camcorder.

..."If this kind of thing bothers you, get a train set"...

H_Rocket.... That is a fabulous saying! I hope you have it on a t-shirt!

 

[Peartree]

It didn't happen to me and I don't have pictures but I saw the nozzle blow out of an Estes 'E' in a Mean Machine. It lifted maybe an inch on the pad and the biggest column of flame (on a LPR rocket) I've ever seen poured out, then smoke, the poof. When the smoke cleared the rocket sat undamaged right where it started. Of course it crashed twice later in the day. That rocket just had bad mojo.

 

[jflis]

OH! OH! I just remembered another cato story...

Happened at NARAM last year (yeah, the BIG five-oh event)...

It was during the imagination celebration. I had a UFFO outfitted for 24mm with an E9 in it. Under each of 12 cups there was a pleat folded streamer, 12 different colors. For those of you familiar with the "St. Louis Arch" event, this was more of a "NARAM Rainbow" type of thing.

I've done this before and it is SPECTACULAR. To keep the thing as secret as possible leading up to the event, I kept it inside a cardboard fence all around the launcher, so you couldn't see the UFFO. The intent (as it worked before) was that this thing would leap out of the box, trailing a rainbow of color for 100 or so feet into the air.

To add to the suspense, I gave a short memorial to my friend Glenn Avalear who had recently passed away.

You could cut the tension with a knife as we reached zero in the count down!

Blew the nozzle.... Just a bunch of smoke rising out of the cake shaped box... ...then flames... The dreadful part was when they had to walk over and take the fire extinguisher to the mess...

ick...

 

[MarkII]

an·ti·cli·max (\-ˈklī-ˌmaks\) noun 1710:

1: an event, period, or outcome that is strikingly less important or dramatic than expected (Example: https://www.rocketryforum.com/showpost.php?p=4713&postcount=47 )



(Dictionary citation with apologies to the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary)

Mark \\.

 

[quickburst]

I guess any catastrophic failure can be described as a CATO or cato or whatever you choose to call it. It's not in Webster (as we define it) so I guess the user has exclusive right to define it as he pleases.

Anyway, I'm sure some of you have used the Pro38 motors? I have seen this happen three times. The rocketeer opens the package and inserts the reload into the rocket. Carries it out to the pad, countdown ends and the entire rocket goes up in flames.

Pretty cool but hard on the rocket, know what I mean?

It seems that these two rocketeers (both experienced High Power fliers) forgot to place the reload in the casing prior to loading the motor in the rocket.

We created "The Hall Of Flame" and enter the name of each rocketeer that made this mistake.

 

[MysticalRockets]

One I forgot about. (Don't know how I could, but...)

Was flying some small stuff at a local baseball field. Had a reporter doing an article there. Put an A10-3T in an Estes Gauchito (always loved that little thing).

Spits the nozzle.

Melts a hole through the blast deflector. The rocket burned.

I was so embarrassed. I was glad they didn't use that pic. Would have been interesting to explain that one to the rec department.

 

[luke strawwalker]

No. Consider it no more than hazing the new guy. You'll get used to ignoring it at some point.

I once had a Estes E9 spit out the nozzle and my Rubicon just sat there spewing burning goop onto the blast deflector. It was a borrowed pad so I felt so embarrassed and sad although it wasn't really my fault and there was nothing I could have done about it. It didn't help that the owner promply packed up and left just afterwards but oh well, now I pretty much only use my gear.

Amazingly the plastic nozzles on the underside of the Rubicon didn't melt from the CATO.

Yeah, Dave (dwmzmm) nearly lost his FSI Maverick out at Needville last year when he and I were doing some test launches and his E9 spit the nozzle out... it burned and smoked furiously and caught one of his fins on fire, but it wasn't too bad and I think he's since fixed it...

My rod tipped D12-D12 staged Maniac that cruise missiled into the south pasture a few minutes later... THAT was unfixable... OL JR

 

[MarkII]

I'm kind of curious to find out whether or not black powder propulsion device failures occur more often with rocket fliers who live in hot climates. Perhaps the propulsion devices that they keep on hand are more likely to undergo extreme temperature cycling? (Or else may be it is just that they launch more often...)

I live in a relatively cool climate, and so my BP propulsion devices are not exposed to high ambient temperatures during storage. That could possibly be a factor in why I don't seem to get those failures. Maybe?

Mark \\.

 

[jeff_in_AZ]

I can add a few LPR experiences. The first
photo below is from an Estes Gnome launching on a
1/2A3-4T. Evidently the clay nozzle cracked, you can see
the vectored thrust in the photo. It barely cleared the
launch rod, then gave up and dropped to the ground.
The video's kinda funny, I had my camcorder set up
on a tripod and you see me run into the picture and
stamp out the grass fire. When I inspected the motor
afterward there was no clay nozzle present anymore.
The rocket was ok and flew again that day.

The second photo is from an Estes Blue Ninja launching
on an E9-4. When I built the rocket, I made the motor mount
so that it could use a D or an E engine. This was the first
flight on an E for the rocket and for myself. Same story
as above, the nozzle cracked and the rocket never left the
launch pad, although this time it didn't start a grass fire.
The fin can melted from the heat, though, and the bottom section
of the rocket was totaled. Later I realized that I had used
the wrong size igniter plug for the motor - I had used the
larger white plug that goes with a D12 engine and not the
smaller black plug that goes with the C11 and E9 motors.
I also realized that if I had followed the instructions
and placed the rocket 8" above the blast deflector,
the fins might have not melted. Ah well, live and learn.
I chalked it up to experience and headed to the hobby store.

jeff

 

[jadebox]

Anyway, I'm sure some of you have used the Pro38 motors? I have seen this happen three times. The rocketeer opens the package and inserts the reload into the rocket. Carries it out to the pad, countdown ends and the entire rocket goes up in flames.

We don't miss a chance to remind our friend, Robb, about the time he did that. I have a series of stills I took as Robb's rocket sat on the pad, engulfed in flames. But, for some reason, I can't find the photos right now. When I find them, I'll post a link.

-- Roger

 

[SwingWing]

I'm kind of curious to find out whether or not black powder propulsion device failures occur more often with rocket fliers who live in hot climates. Perhaps the propulsion devices that they keep on hand are more likely to undergo extreme temperature cycling? (Or else may be it is just that they launch more often...)

I live in a relatively cool climate, and so my BP propulsion devices are not exposed to high ambient temperatures during storage. That could possibly be a factor in why I don't seem to get those failures. Maybe?

Mark \\.

Of the four odd catos I have had, two of them were at winter launches. The motor/engines were stored at reasonable temps, but obviously cooled significantly when installed.
I would think that the northern climates have as big or bigger temp swings than the southern climates, but proper storage is still the key.

 

[Handeman]

I've never had what I would call a cato, I did have a B6 erode the nozzle enough the ejection charge blew out the bottom and only popped the nose cone off, but I wouldn't call that a cato.

I've seen several. One of the more memorable was a Mean Machine that blew the nozzle. It sat on the Estes pad, without a blast deflector, I don't know why, and burned away. About the time the motor quite burning, the plastic pad had melted enough that the rocket fell over. It laid there a couple of seconds before the ejection charge popped the nose cone off.

 

[MarkII]

Of the four odd catos I have had, two of them were at winter launches. The motor/engines were stored at reasonable temps, but obviously cooled significantly when installed.
I would think that the northern climates have as big or bigger temp swings than the southern climates, but proper storage is still the key.

It was my understanding that temperature cycling between cold and moderate temps wasn't associated with more catastrophic failures of BP engines, but that temperature cycling between moderate and very hot temperatures (such as leaving a box of engines in a hot garage or storage shed for a couple of weeks) definitely was. I don't do much launching in the winter, and the summers here don't get all that hot, at least compared to parts of the country where there are a lot of rocket clubs and a lot of rocket launches. (You know where I mean...) Also, as I understand it, the temperature variations that BP engines experienced during storage were critical, not the air temp at the time of launch. I would imagine that rocketeers who live above the snow line store their engines indoors or in a heated building during the winter, where they are not exposed to cold temperatures for any extended period. (That's certainly what I do. It does get rather cool in my basement during those weeks of sub-zero temps every January, though.) I was just wondering if there was any anecdotal evidence that the incidence of catastrophic BP motor failures might have some relationship to variations in the local climates where the rocket flier lived (and where he or she presumably stored his or her BP motors/engines). There may actually be no reliable way to answer the question without performing a formal statistical analysis of available data or even without conducting a carefully controlled study. But I thought that I would go ahead and ask anyway.

Mark \\.

 

[Peartree]

I can't speak to most of your post, but temperature cycling would be an issue for any motors that got stored away in someone's attic (or parents attic) or garage when they were out of rocketry for a time. Then you get temperature cycling from cold winter temps to locked car hot summer temps...

 

[SwingWing]

It was my understanding that temperature cycling between cold and moderate temps wasn't associated with more catastrophic failures of BP engines, but that temperature cycling between moderate and very hot temperatures (such as leaving a box of engines in a hot garage or storage shed for a couple of weeks) definitely was. I don't do much launching in the winter, and the summers here don't get all that hot, at least compared to parts of the country where there are a lot of rocket clubs and a lot of rocket launches. (You know where I mean...) Also, as I understand it, the temperature variations that BP engines experienced during storage were critical, not the air temp at the time of launch. I would imagine that rocketeers who live above the snow line store their engines indoors or in a heated building during the winter, where they are not exposed to cold temperatures for any extended period. (That's certainly what I do. It does get rather cool in my basement during those weeks of sub-zero temps every January, though.) I was just wondering if there was any anecdotal evidence that the incidence of catastrophic BP motor failures might have some relationship to variations in the local climates where the rocket flier lived (and where he or she presumably stored his or her BP motors/engines). There may actually be no reliable way to answer the question without performing a formal statistical analysis of available data or even without conducting a carefully controlled study. But I thought that I would go ahead and ask anyway.

Mark \\.

IMHO temperature cycling doesn't just mean getting hot. Cold means shrinkage (did I just say that?) and that can cause the pulling away of the propellant slug from the casing, and cracks in the grain.

 

[shreadvector]

I wish that sticky thread from the previous life of TRF was still here. here is some info on BP motor failures:

View attachment CatoExplanation.pdf

 

[init 6]

here's my favourite cato (wasn't he the guy in OJ Simpson's house?)

When a K1440 exceeds the speed of plywood

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN1DIk2oyMw

 

[RocketT.Coyote]

An A8-3 exploded and destroyed my Estes Sandpiper on it's maiden flight in the mid-1980s.
An A10-3T damaged my Boyce Aerospace Saturn V when the propellant grain blew. On it's first flight attempt, a C6-3 Catoed in my Space Camel BG.
During a demo, a C6-3 CATO in my 1:70 scale Apollo Little Joe scratch-built split the solid balsa cone and shredded the LES in the Summer of 1996. On it's maiden flight, a D12 Cato scorched the insides of a TLP Hawk and blistered the paint.
This past Labor Day weekend a D12 blew it's nozzle and propellant grain, damaging my Dynastar Firefox SHX.