# Another U.S. Navy ship collides with a merchant vessel

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#### Zeus-cat

##### Well-Known Member
The USS John McCain (named for Senator McCain's father and grandfather - both admirals) has collided with another ship. Search and rescue operations underway.

#### KidRockET

##### Epstein didn't kill himself
The Russians did it...

#### RocketFeller

##### Well-Known Member

In my opinion this is very serious...
I just read this is the 4th naval incident / accident this year...
This makes our military look bad at the worst time...

I'm concerned that if the little fat obnoxious crazy kid
thinks our military is anything but stellar he may do something stupid....

Teddy

#### Woody's Workshop

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
I have to agree with Teddy on this.
NK might just take an offense step towards one of our ships just to see if he can catch them sleeping at the helm.
If he succeeds, who knows he would try next.
Some butts needs kicks and heads must roll and get things into ship shape.

#### CPUTommy

##### Thrust cures All
Yet again, Things like this dont "happen" There are no more than a minimum of 10 people who ALL check each other just with navigation. Ive been on a guided missile cruiser, and in the CIC.. this is nothing but intentional. To allow this to happen.. Is unacceptable.

Why in the past year have we had such collisions.

#### XolveJohn

##### Well-Known Member
Proof there is a plot. The last one hit square on the captains quarters, I thought just a fluke. But this one hit crewmans quarters AGAIN. They are doing this on purpose. Next they will find a bomb which was to turn the tanker into a...

FUEL AIR MUNITION.

They need to call in Homeland Security. Well at least they have hired a specialist for each ship:

#### Marc_G

##### Well-Known Member
What I don't get is: doesn't somebody on the Naval ship notice that they are in the path of a BIG HONKING COMMERCIAL ship? And I'm not talking just radar. I'm talking look out the window.... Aren't there people on deck?

I'm not yet sold on hacking conspiracies (yet). I just don't see how even in crowded waters this can happen involving a naval vessel that should certainly have had human eyes pointed in all directions.

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#### Kallahan11

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
basically the Navy runs the sailors ragged on stupid schedules where then get 8 hours of sleep a week. Then talk about how manly it is to not get sleep. Then they crash their ships.

#### XolveJohn

##### Well-Known Member
They need a couple nuclear powered drones to constantly circle the ship, with metal detectors and some camera thing that works, like IR. Set off a really loud bell if they see something.

OR, use satellite imagery to track the ships constantly, and call the captains cellphone if they see another ship coming!

My idea of installing nuke torpedoes that would automatically launch to stop a collision would probably be rejected. :no:

#### georgegassaway

So, I said in the Firzgerald collision when the Navy anounced the removal of the senor leaders, to:

"REMEMBER this the next time someone goes off half-cocked spouting conspiracy garbage."

But here we go again with the conspiracy garbage.

Well, below is former NAR president Trip Barber's comment about the McCain collision.

What does he know? Well, he is a former CAPTAIN in the US Navy. He commanded the USS Deyo, as well as base commander at Norfolk. Also worked at the Pentagon for many years , including as an analyst after retiring from the US Navy. One of the smartest people I know.

Unfortunately, historically there have been many instances of military accidents, aircraft crashes, friendly fire, whatever, that are often due more to poor training or lackadaisical attitudes than equipment or intentional ill will by outside forces (Certainly, there can be bad equipment, such as new aircraft. But US Navy ships have had to deal with avoiding other ships since around 1776. These two destroyers are well over 20 years old) .

And once such patterns become more obvious, there usually is a stand-down to re-assess and work out ways to address the problems, which is what the Navy is doing. Looking out the f***-ing windows (or radar screens if that is your duty), when you are on watch, and being AWARE of where the h*** the ship is (so as not to run aground) are probably pretty high on the list......

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#### georgegassaway

An update:

"Commander of Naval Fleet to Be Relieved of Duty Following Collisions"

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/22/world/asia/us-navy-ship-collision-uss-mccain-search-sailors.html

WASHINGTON &#8212; One day after ordering a rare suspension of ship operations worldwide, the Navy plans to relieve the commander of the fleet that has sustained four collisions in Asia and the deaths of more than a dozen sailors this year, an American official said Tuesday.

Vice Adm. Joseph P. Aucoin, the head of the Seventh Fleet based in Japan, the Navy&#8217;s largest overseas fleet, is expected to be removed Wednesday in connection with the four collisions since January, including two fatal ones in the past two months, the official said.

Admiral Aucoin had been expected to retire in the coming weeks, but his superiors pushed up his departure date after losing confidence in his leadership. The action was first reported by The Wall Street Journal.

Navy officials declined to comment on Tuesday night. But Adm. Scott H. Swift, the commander of the United States Pacific Fleet, was flying from Singapore to the Seventh Fleet headquarters in Yokosuka, Japan, where he is expected to relieve Admiral Aucoin on Wednesday. Admiral Aucoin, a highly decorated fighter pilot, has commanded the fleet since September 2015.

The admiral&#8217;s removal comes as the Navy is preparing to conduct an extremely rare suspension of ship operations worldwide for a day or two in the next week to review safety and operational procedures. More broadly, Navy officials are also investigating the role that training, manning and crew communications may have played in the collisions.

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#### Woody's Workshop

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Some one had to take the blame in the public eyes.....and....the 1st head rolls
Butt kicking soon to begin...

#### CPUTommy

##### Thrust cures All
Relieving the people at the top... changes nothing. Facts are that 4 ships in the past 6 months have been damaged..

To say its the fault of the fleet commander is hilarious.

I didnt know the fleet commander was also the captain of all 4 ships..

However.. the story does sound "good" and that's all it is..

#### XolveJohn

##### Well-Known Member
Many things with our gov are conspiracies. When they let Pearl Harbor happen. NO WMD in Iraq.

I suppose THIS was one too: If they could do it to a drone, they could do it to a ship.

https://phys.org/news/2011-12-rq-drone-ambush-facts-iranian.html

Iran&#8217;s story about the electronic ambush of America&#8217;s sophisticated drone, the RQ-170 Sentinel, is that their experts used their technology savvy to trick the drone into landing where the drone thought was its actual base in Afghanistan but instead they made it land in Iran. They used reverse engineering techniques that they had developed after exploring less sophisticated American drones captured or shot down in recent years. They were able to figure how to exploit a navigational weakness in the drone&#8217;s system. "The GPS navigation is the weakest point," the Iranian engineer told the newspaper.
Iranian electronic warfare specialists were able to cut off the communications link by jamming on the communications. The engineer said that they forced the drone into autopilot. That state is where &#8220;the bird loses its brain." The Iranians reconfigured the drone's GPS coordinates and they used precise latitudinal and longitudinal data to force the drone to land on its own. In doing so the Iranian team did not have to bother about cracking remote control signals and communications from a control center in the U.S., and the RQ170 suffered only minimal damage, according to the report.

#### georgegassaway

Just more Conspiracy nuttery.

Crew incompetence, for whatever reason. Not paying enough attention looking out the freaking windows (AFAIK no reports of there being fog involving the collisions), not paying enough attention to the SURFACE radars, not paying enough attention to navigation/charts (running aground).

That this happened four times in a year in only one fleet, not the others? Yeah, overall responsibility for fleet-wide competency issues pretty much falls at the feet of the fleet commander.

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#### Peartree

##### Cyborg Rocketeer
Staff member
Global Mod
Responsible or not, somebody had to be the scapegoat. Relieving a Vice Admiral of command, before the investigation has even started, who is only weeks from retirement, is pure theater.

#### H_Rocket

##### Death by Powerpoint
Relieving the people at the top... changes nothing. Facts are that 4 ships in the past 6 months have been damaged..

To say its the fault of the fleet commander is hilarious.

I didnt know the fleet commander was also the captain of all 4 ships..
Relieving the commanding officers of the ships was utterly appropriate. The person with the OIC badge is responsible for anything that happens to their ship. As Trip noted, they will and should be fired for simply not ensuring their folks were 100% on the ball. Folks can come up with all kinds of conspiracy theories about hacking and whether or not they pan out, someone was derelict in their duties. You can't "hack" a live watch stander. To me, I think they cut back on watches and relied way too much on technology to do a job far better done by someone standing watch. I'll presume that there was no technological problem. Given that, it means the commanding officer did not ensure his folks were well enough trained to properly interpret the sensor data or appropriately react to data that indicated a hazard to their vessel.

As to the Admiral, yes he should be relieved of his command. Call it theater if you like, however he is accountable for the failure of the captains he commanded to do their jobs correctly. No investigation was needed. With multiple casualties like this on his watch, he is apparently not up to the job he was given. People's lives depend on officers like him doing their jobs with the utmost skill and professionalism. That admiral and those commanders did not live up to the trust placed in them.

My theory is that in our kinder and gentler more inclusive world, we are failing to train front line troops (and yes a sailor on a warship is as much a soldier as a guy holding an assault rifle) for fear we may hurt their sensibilities. I think we are begging to find out that the converse of the old saying "The More You Sweat in Training, The Less You Bleed in Combat" is true. The military is no place for sensibilities. I don't care what race, gender (however you define it), or whatever other definition of person you have. If you are not up to the discipline and rigor of being in a ready to act military without "special" treatment, you don't belong there.

Of course that is my $0.02 and, as usual YMMV (And yes I served on a surface combatant) #### Onebadhawk ##### Sponsor TRF Sponsor George G,,, +1... Al G,,, You are a surface combatant,,, and +1..... Please remember this one with the McCain happened in the busiest shipping lanes in the world... In these shipping lanes it is normal for ships to come relatively close to each other,, this is the most important time that whoever is charged with watching out is indeed watching out very carefully..... I'm pretty sure I read with the Fitzgerald incident they relieved ALL of the officers of command... I really feel terrible for these guys,, including the vice Admiral who is weeks away from retirement... But this just simply cannot be allowed or tolerated.. Do you realize how terrible this makes us look,, how incompetent... and at the absolute worst time... Do you remember 10 or 12 years ago when the 17 sailors died because a boat full of high explosives was run right up alongside our ship and it was two terrorists.. We had men watching over the side of our ship when this happened,, wondering, hey, what the heck are these guys doing ?? I thought after that we would never let another ship or even small boat anywhere near a ship of ours again... This makes us look absolutely terrible, incompetent at the absolute worst time... ( fat little obnoxious crazy kid ) And right now our entire Navy is taking a day or two off from operations ??????? In Asia ??????????? Ohhh man... Teddy #### Steve Shannon ##### Well-Known Member TRF Supporter Relieving the commanding officers of the ships was utterly appropriate. The person with the OIC badge is responsible for anything that happens to their ship. As Trip noted, they will and should be fired for simply not ensuring their folks were 100% on the ball. Folks can come up with all kinds of conspiracy theories about hacking and whether or not they pan out, someone was derelict in their duties. You can't "hack" a live watch stander. To me, I think they cut back on watches and relied way too much on technology to do a job far better done by someone standing watch. I'll presume that there was no technological problem. Given that, it means the commanding officer did not ensure his folks were well enough trained to properly interpret the sensor data or appropriately react to data that indicated a hazard to their vessel. As to the Admiral, yes he should be relieved of his command. Call it theater if you like, however he is accountable for the failure of the captains he commanded to do their jobs correctly. No investigation was needed. With multiple casualties like this on his watch, he is apparently not up to the job he was given. People's lives depend on officers like him doing their jobs with the utmost skill and professionalism. That admiral and those commanders did not live up to the trust placed in them. My theory is in our kinder and gentler more inclusive world, we are failing to train front line troops (and yes a sailor on a warship is as much a soldier as a guy holding an assault rifle) for fear we may hurt their sensibilities. I think we are begging to find out that the converse of the old saying "The More You Sweat in Training, The Less You Bleed in Combat" is true. The military is no place for sensibilities. I don't care what race, gender (however you define it), or whatever other definition of person you have. If you are not up to the discipline and rigor of being in a ready to act military without "special" treatment, you don't belong there. Of course that is my$0.02 and, as usual YMMV

(And yes I served on a surface combatant)
Well said.

#### Mushtang

TRF Supporter
4 collisions in one year, definitely appropriate to remove the Admiral even if he wasn't the Captain of any of the boats.

To paraphrase Sam Rothstein from Casino: Listen, if you didn't know why these collisions keep happening, you're too freakin' dumb to keep this job, if you did know, you were in on it. Either way, YOU'RE OUT! Get out. Go on, let's go.

#### H_Rocket

##### Death by Powerpoint
Teddy, as to your thought about the McCain being in a very congested shipping lane, there should have been port and starboard bridge lookouts (at the very minimum). If those were in place, then there really is a leadership problem. A stand down, however embarrassing, is needed. We need to understand where we are failing and fix it on the freaking double.

I reject any theory of deliberate action on the part of these crews. Most every service person I have had the honor of standing alongside was way above this sort of behavior and it is beyond any reasonable scope that they would hazard their comrades to prove a political point. This was simply a case of poor training and incompetent leadership.

Teddy, as too your thought about the McCain being in a very congested shipping lane, there should have been port and starboard bridge lookouts (at the very minimum). If those were in place, then there really is a leadership problem. A stand down, however embarrassing, is needed. We need to understand where we are failing and fix it on the freaking double.

I reject any theory of deliberate action on the part of these crews. Most every service person I have had the honor of standing alongside was way above this sort of behavior and it is beyond any reasonable scope that they would hazard their comrades to prove a political point. This was simply a case of poor training and incompetent leadership.
+100....

I didn't mean how busy the shipping lane was as an excuse Al,,
just the opposite,, the people charged with watching out should have been even more vigilant...

But you're still a surface combatant...

Teddy

#### Zeus-cat

##### Well-Known Member
I see no reason to feel bad for those people being relieved of command. For the senior people that is the price you pay when people beneath you screw up. These are things you are supposed to prevent; that is your job. Besides, it is not like they will be "fired" like in the civilian world. They are still in uniform and still getting paid and if they have their 20 years in they will be able to retire and get their pension. If they screw up badly enough they may get knocked down a rank or two for retirement pay, but senior military people will still get a pension that pays more than many people earn from a full time job.

I see no reason to feel bad for those people being relieved of command. For the senior people that is the price you pay when people beneath you screw up. These are things you are supposed to prevent; that is your job. Besides, it is not like they will be "fired" like in the civilian world. They are still in uniform and still getting paid and if they have their 20 years in they will be able to retire and get their pension. If they screw up badly enough they may get knocked down a rank or two for retirement pay, but senior military people will still get a pension that pays more than many people earn from a full time job.
I agree with everything you just said..
It would be impossible to disagree with it..
But these people are still human being that spent a lifetime building a career and a reputation...
I don't care who you are,,
if something of this magnitude happens to you I feel bad for you...
Can you imagine how the Captain of the vessel feels ....
Men were lost due to a stupid happenstance / mistake that occurred under his watch...

The captains and whoever was truly at fault,,,,,,
I wouldn't want their mind for the rest of their lives....

I really feel for them...

But I understand what must be done,,,
Must be done...

Teddy

#### XolveJohn

##### Well-Known Member
Columbia: "I think it's people in the Navy that hate trump and are sabotaging things to just make trump look bad."

That is an extreme accusation of malfeasance in the Navy. I trust them.

Except for the one time. They overrammed a load of powder bags in a WW2 battleship, resulting in a big boom, and

said it was a sailor that was (deleted), who planted a Radio Shack bomb in the barrel. Actually pushed that story until proven wrong. Hey, everybody makes mistakes!
:jaw::jaw:

THE RUSSIANS HAVE A GIZMO THAT MAKES THE GPS WRONG. It was seen that some ships were cruising on LAND when it was used. I think they should go back to inertial platforms, and star fixing for position.

http://aa.usno.navy.mil/publications/reports/Kaplan1995b.pdf

#### ChrisAttebery

##### Well-Known Member
It's been widely reported that there was a steering failure on the USS John McCain. A couple reports questioned why the crew hadn't used the backup steering mechanism.