Another tracking thread - with poll!

[stealth6]

So, here's the basic question:

Regarding electronic tracking, do you use RF or GPS exclusively? Do you use both, and if so in what percentage?

This is a poll ONLY for those flyers who do use electronic tracking - "I don't use trackers" or "I track visually" or "I use a dog-team to sniff out my rocket's location" are not valid answers for the purposes of this thread.

For those of you who do use trackers, please feel free to elaborate on your own experiences - what has worked and not worked for you and why, what systems you prefer in however much detail you care to provide, how conditions and/or flight profiles inform you decisions, success/failure stories, etc.

thanks for your responses and for adding to the greater collective knowledge!
s6

 

[stealth6]

Okay, I do realize that GPS trackers still use RF and so "I use GPS exclusively" is not technically correct, but you do understand what I'm getting at, yes?

For the purposes of this poll, "GPS" means systems that broadcast location, and then you navigate to that spot, and "RF" means honing in on radio signal strength/direction to lead you to where you are going.

s6

 

[Eat, sleep, and Fly]

I use RF tracking, not because it is my preference, but because it is all that is available to me.

 

[dixontj93060]

Used GPS for the first time at LDRS 33 (my last four flights, with the last one completely Bong'd!). I tell you, I may never go back. Not only could you see flight progress, position updated via incoming comm, you just take that last reading and drop it in Google Maps on your iPhone then drive/walk right to it. If no cell coverage then my Yaesu has a map/directional feature allowing compass-like tracking. Better yet afterward, download BRB data and with a data massage step, see your flight on Google Earth--YEAH!

 

[ScottJ]

I use my nieces.

 

[Handeman]

I use a Walston RF because that is what is available. Most flight I use it with end up not needing it, and when I do use the tracker, it usually speeds up the recovery time more then preventing the loss of the rocket.

 

[RocketDestroyer]

I use my nieces.

I use GPS tracking but this has got to be then best method ever. No maintenance and no batteries required. No walking either. Just sit back and wait for the rocket to return. I love it.

 

[markjos]

I've been using a Beeline RF beacon for a number of years, and it's been a great system for me (and any number of friends who wanted some insurance on their flights). It's flown in nose cones, payload bays, and been taped to shock cords - just works every time.

I've been thinking about a Beeline GPS or a home brew APRS tracking device (the packet protocol used on the Beeline GPS, and an option on Altus Metrum devices), but my appetite for new electronics (and kitbuilding) kicked in when Cris Erving introduced the Eggfinder GPS tracker earlier this year. Similar functionality to the 900 MHz Beeline GPS, but more accessible in terms of cost. I've built one for myself, and one for a friend, including the LCD receiver. Now it's flown three times, and proven itself quite well.

The Beeline and other RF beacons are almost always smaller than their GPS counterparts, so they're a bit easier to fit on a rocket - especially if it's a last-minute choice or favor. With practice, tracking an RF beacon isn't difficult. The GPS trackers - well, it's pretty simple walking right to the location displayed on the device.

I do think they each have their place.

Mark

 

[Wayco]

I use both. Have been using CSI RF beacons for a while, but when I lost my L-2 cert rocket on the Lucerne Dry lake it really bummed me out. I tried offering a reward, but got no results. Several people have searched for it. Lost signal on landing and never picked it up again.
Now I have an Eggfinder, it doesn't get easier than this. I still put a beacon in some of my smaller rockets, because they were built before I had an Eggfinder. Both systems work, but GPS is much easier to use.

 

[Rrwjr]

I use an RF system. It's a com-spec receiver with a falconry type transmitter from E&E. When I first got it about 2 years ago I was a bit worried if I would be able to find something I couldn't see ( if I lost sight of rocket). I went out to where our club launches (Bong) and sent my son out to hide. It turned out to be relatively easy to "tune in" to where he was.

Fast forward to now and I know that I have saved hundreds, maybe thousands of dollars, and I'm sure I have gotten in many more launches as I found my rockets quickly compared to just visually trying to find them. The question that I had wondered to myself was "how small of a rocket could I find"? As I mentioned my home field is Bong so it is not uncommon to find yourself in weeds, or reeds, or swamp grass that is over 5 feet tall. I got my answer on a flight last year where I actually had my transmitter fall off the rocket ( it falling off was my error). I had forgotten to seal the end of the tube that I slide my transmitter in. The transmitter basically fell out at apogee.
While it took me about 2 hours, I was able to tune,retune, retune, repeat several more times( probably hundreds more times) and find my thimble sized transmitter in the weeds about 5/8 of a mile away from where we launched the rocket.

I can see where a GPS system might save you some considerable tracking time if your rocket drifts over a mile away from the pad and there are wooded areas that mess up your line of site, which can happen where I launch. I would like to try a GPS system one day but for now there are to many other things I want to try in rocketry first.

 

[Random Flying Object]

Multiple, redundant GPS tracking transmitters.


Sent from my iPad using Rocketry Forum

 

[markjos]

...Similar functionality to the 900 MHz Beeline GPS, but more accessible in terms of cost...

I should have been more careful with this statement. In terms of displaying raw lat/lon info, the Eggfinder and BRB900 are similar, but it's important to point out that the BRB has several additional features for that increased expense. These include on-board storage of the flight track, u-blox GPS chipset (which probably provides better near-real-time altitude data), and more.

Mark

 

[FredA]

I use both...
GPS sometimes only gets you close.
In our high desert sage, a rocket 10 feet from you can hide.
Sometimes I need to RDF on the GPS packet to zoom in the final 50 feet.
Been begging Greg to put a RDF ping in between GPS packets -- but just watch the signal-strength meter.

BRB900 can't support this since it's spread....

 

[stealth6]

I guess I should chime in with my own experience.

I track with GPS. When I reached the point in my rocketry life that tracking was "necessary", I was really not interested in learning or getting into a new hobby (HAM, etc.), and quite honestly RDF tracking looked like a skill to master in and of itself that I was not prepared for. I just wanted to find my rockets as easily as possible. At the time I just happened to be a little more flush with cash than usual, and the BRB900 system was just coming into it's own. So the stars aligned to guide me to purchasing a non-HAM GPS rig that pretty much worked out-of-the-box. I got the BRB-900 with the LCD receiver, and a cheap used Garmin handheld off E(vil)bay, and started flying higher right away. It's worked really well, gave me the confidence to go bigger with my rockets/flights, and definitely saved more than a couple of my rockets.

That said, I'm finding myself more interested in learning how to track via RF of late. I did have a recent "near miss" experience where my GPS rig did NOT do it's job - it turned out fine and I got my rocket back, but it did give me pause. And, due to recently becoming L2 certified, I'm flying higher and higher these days. Perhaps deepening my skills and methodology would be a good thing. So who knows, I might just find myself getting a technician's license and picking up a radio/yagi/etc. sometime this winter perhaps.

For now though, it's GPS in any rocket I put up higher than 3000' or so. When it works (which it pretty much always does so far) it works REALLY well. It's like magic.

s6

 

[grouch]

I am a big RDF proponent. For me it just makes more sense, I like the mobility it gives me. The Marshall transmitter I use it small enough to fit in a 24mm min diameter so I can easily move it from rocket to rocket. I simply tape it to a stick and poke it up inside the nosecone. The downsides I see to the GPS units are they need to be placed in an avbay which means they are more or less dedicated to that rocket. Also there have been plenty of situations where they fail to find lock. My RDF is as easy to operate as turning on the transmitter and receive, it always works. The RDF's are just plain fun too. I prefer the hunt, it's becoming the more enjoyable part of flying. I like altitude but I also like single deploy, that means I better like walking and looking! The thought of having to deal with a handheld/laptop/dongle/programming is just too complicated for me to enjoy.

 

[stealth6]

I am a big RDF proponent. For me it just makes more sense, I like the mobility it gives me. The Marshall transmitter I use it small enough to fit in a 24mm min diameter so I can easily move it from rocket to rocket. I simply tape it to a stick and poke it up inside the nosecone. The downsides I see to the GPS units are they need to be placed in an avbay which means they are more or less dedicated to that rocket. Also there have been plenty of situations where they fail to find lock. My RDF is as easy to operate as turning on the transmitter and receive, it always works. The RDF's are just plain fun too. I prefer the hunt, it's becoming the more enjoyable part of flying. I like altitude but I also like single deploy, that means I better like walking and looking! The thought of having to deal with a handheld/laptop/dongle/programming is just too complicated for me to enjoy.

I hear you Jarrett. It DOES sound appealing these days - for the reasons you gave as well as being smaller/lighter/cheaper/etc.

One of the problems for me is that I fly solo the majority of the time. I rarely get to attend a group/club launch, and quite honestly I've never been able to witness or take part in someone doing actual RDF tracking in person. I'd love to learn "the art" but it seems like something you need to experience first hand, and I simply never get the chance. When approaching learning a GPS rig it comes across as something you could just follow the directions and you could learn it on your own. But with RDF, it seems like the way to understand the subtleties and nuances necessary for success is to learn it from someone else. I may be wrong but it seems this way.

What I need is a RDF mentor to pass his/her wisdom down to me, to teach me the dark arts in person, and to guide me in my quest across the desert in search of a lost rocket.
Anyone want to bring their RDF rig out to the desert, launch a few rockets out of sight, and show me the way?

s6

 

[grouch]

CJ helped me a lot. Exchanging PM's and reading everything 3-4 times was the kicker. He posted a PDF that was written for the Walston unit, that is pretty much the standard for RDF use. I started getting interested in RDF after Rick Comshaw was nice enough to put his ComSpec in my Nuke for my level 2 flight. Nobody had a clue where it went but the CommSpec knew. The main thing I have learned is to go slow. Scan slow with the elements horizontal then vertical, one will give you a stronger signal. Look at the S-meter and notice where it peaks, then look straight ahead and pick out a landmark or a bearing and start walking. Stop every 50 yards or so and repeat. Pretty soon your S-meter will be pegged no matter where you point the receiver. That means you are pretty much on it. My Marshall has a killer attenuator. I reduce the setting from far to near and start again. Carefully listening to the volume of the pings while looking at the S-meter. When you are scanning side to side, do a complete 360. This way you won't get confused with the TX's back signal. It will be 180 degrees from the strongest signal, just a little fainter though. I gotta tell you, it is seriously fun. When you come up on your rocket in the middle of waist high grass knowing you would have walked 5ft to the left or right without the tracker is a rush. But the best thing is the complete loss of anxiety when I fly, I don't worry if it went higher than I thought it should have or it it's drifting the wrong way, just relax and fly. If you want a good depiction of how I use the equipment I have, check out this video. It's long but well worth watching.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=672KOWocQ5A

 

[rcktnut]

My buddy and I own a Walston, pretty much all that was available for tracking when we purchased it. Never lost a rocket with a tx on board. Pretty much do the same thing grouch has mentioned, accept never used the attenuator yet. By using landmarks (in tall grass, hayfeilds,etc) and walking straight ahead always walked into the rocket. In corn always sighted before need to use.

 

[grouch]

S6, another thing that isn't so obvious until you start with RDF is splitting the signal. There are times when your S-meter shows the same strength for something like a 20 degree arc or more. The easiest way to get the center is scan all the way in one direction until it drops completely off then go back the other direction until it pegs for that 20 degree arc, keep going past that until it drops off on the other side. Your rocket will be halfway between the points, pick a landmark off in a distance and start walking. As you get closer the cone or arc will get much more narrow and it will be easier to go back to just the S-meter.

 

[azzie]

I use BRB 70cm for high-altitude flights, but KennB always beats it by tracking my rockets visually. I don't know how he does it. I bet his sunglasses have built-in RDF and he just punches in the frequency from the flight card

Another creative way of tracking rockets is by photographing the sky with fish-eye lens at few frames per second, and then analyzing the differences in images. I had some success in doing so in MATLAB, not as good as GPS but definitely beats dog sniffing

 

[mikemech]

Mark 6 eyeball. Used to be a Mark 1 a few (~50) years ago. Mainly use the neighborhood kids. Don't leave home without 'em.