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Bruiser

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My Vapor has had some issues in the past and I'm on my second rebuild. The first time there was an over pressure issue and the seams on the lower body tube came open so I replaced the lower tube. This time the parachute failed to deploy so I am replacing most of the upper body tube.
Ven.jpg


There was a painting issue where the new tube met the existing tube when doing the first repair. The paint kinda bubbled and wrinkled in that area. I sanded it down and tried again to have the same happen again but not quite as bad. I decided to just leave it and fly as it was which leads to this repair.

The replacement of the damaged area went great. I filled the spirals and the joint with watered CWF and sanded. Sprayed on some filler primer yesterday afternoon and went home. This is what I saw this morning.
Vapor Paint.jpg


This is the same area that gave me the problem after the first repair. I had wet sanded the entire rocket with 220 before spraying and the rest of the rocket looks great. I am trying to decide what I should do. All I can think of is to sand the area down to the bare tube and try again but I'm not sure if that will work either. THe only thing I can think of is that I must have gotten something on the rocket in that area during the rebuild that is causing this. I don't know how, but I do work in a garage as the parts guy so maybe I didn't wash my hands well enough after handling a part or something. If that's the case I'm not sure anything is going to make this area accepting of the Rustoleum 2X paint.

Any thoughts?

-Bob
 

Bruiser

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Wow, this is turning out to be really tough to sand. I got thru the new primer ok but am having trouble getting thru the black and yellow color coats. I've been thinking about it since my last post (while sanding) and I thought that maybe I should coat it with some thinned epoxy once I get the paint off before trying to paint again. But now, after sanding on 4 inches of BT60 body tube for an hour I am thinking I will not be getting down to the bare tube...

Still open to thoughts,
-Bob
 

BABAR

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Splice in a new tube section?
 

Bruiser

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Hmmn, it turns out this area is right where the coupler is from the original build.

I was having a huge problem sanding it so I ended up scrapping the paint off with a single edge razor blade. I got it down to the tube and couldn't see anything weird. I also remembered that I didn't have this problem with the original paint so I decided to spray some primer and see what happens. This is that :)
Ventris Primer.jpg


So new plan is to sand the primer off and coat the area with water based poly then try priming again.

Babar, If I have not already replaced the upper tube, I would go with your idea because I could simply use a longer tube to keep the overall length the same. Now I would have to use two couplers (or a custom long one) with a short piece of tube to get the same body length.

I'll get the WBP on today but I ran out of primer yesterday so it'll be tomorrow before I can spray again. Probably for the best though because it'll give the poly time to dry well. So many times with paint issues we create our own problems by trying to rush through.

-Bob
 

T-Rex

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Make sure you use the same brand/type primer as the color coat you may be covering. Lacquer over enamel never ends well. Sometimes different layers from different brands doesn't end well even if it is enamel over enamel.
If your primer says ready to sand in 15 minutes (or something similar) it is lacquer based.
 

lakeroadster

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How long did you wait between sanding the CWF and primering? Elmer's Carpenters Wood Filler requires a minimum of 24 hours, in the correct conditions. I always double whatever the spec's say since humidity and temperature alter the actual drying time.
 

Bruiser

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Well, the first rebuild happened back around Dec 2019. I just looked back at that thread and I was having problems with the paint on it then. I fought with it and fought but then just flew it like it was. That was the last time CWF was applied in that area.

I scrapped and sanded the area today. I also applied the poly acrylic but that didn't really go on very smooth. I sanded it down and am ready to try some primer but I ran out yesterday. I'll get more tomorrow but I'm not sure there will be much of a difference. I may have sanded all the poly off.

I just don't get why it is still doing this...

-Bob
 

rklapp

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Shooting from the hip but looks like a chemical separation to me. Perhaps the primer went rancidish...
 

CPUTommy

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what you see is two different chemicals not playing nice with each other. ive seen worse.. personally.. LOL
 

Old School Doug

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I hope you take this comment in the spirit it's given. For the time and energy you've put into repairing, repainting, repairing again and repainting again.......perhaps running down to your local HL and picking up a new kit for under $20 might be a better option. I understand the impulse to "beat the problem into submission" (definitely speaking from experience here) but at some point, especially since we're not talking about a large financial outlay to replace said model, replacement is a preferred solution.
 

lakeroadster

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I applaud your dedication in re-building this bird. You learn so much more working through a problem, as opposed to just "throwing the baby out with the bath water".

:eek: Rancid Paint Herpes.... Eww! :eek:
 

Bruiser

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I have almost thrown this rock out a few times. I do believe it's cursed. First flight a zipper and blown open spirals, then paint issues following the repairs, second fight did not full deploy, replace front section and paint problems... You can read it all here near the bottom of page three and into page four https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/estes-vapor.156209/page-3

I've thought about giving it away. I figured I'd repair the front of the body tube, get the rocket one color then decide what to do with it.

Besides, this one has a few upgrades: TTW light ply fins and a baffle. It was built with a 29mm mount originally but that was changed over to a 24mm motor during the first rebuild.

Once it is gone, I won't have another. Moved on to bigger diameter rockets now that I'm a 3rd year BAR :)

-Bob
 
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Bruiser

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So I need some holy water to do my wet sanding with... Think I can get that from Amazon?

I sprayed it before I left work and it looked ok. It was a light coat and I could see some sanding marks but no paint reaction. I'll check it again in the morning and (dare I tempt fate) spray a little more on to help fill the sanding/scrapping marks.

-Bob
 

lakeroadster

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So I need some holy water to do my wet sanding with... Think I can get that from Amazon?

I sprayed it before I left work and it looked ok. It was a light coat and I could see some sanding marks but no paint reaction. I'll check it again in the morning and (dare I tempt fate) spray a little more on to help fill the sanding/scrapping marks.

-Bob
I wouldn't.

Wait another 24 hours. What's the HVAC like there at work? Is the rocket relatively warm and dry, as in relatively low humidity?

If you're not patient you'll get another case of screaming rancid paint herpes. :oops: So be patient... or be a patient.. ;)
 

Bruiser

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The primer is supposed to be ready for sanding or top coating after 2 hours but I'll wait. I will check it in the morning though and see how it looks. It's at work in my office which is a nice 70 degrees.

-Bob
 

Mustang67

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Sand down a fair amount, use Max 2K primer, wait 10-20 min each time and apply 2-3 coats tops. Light sand then paint, use Max 2K clear over it. You will be very happy with the result.
 

rklapp

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Do you do the painting the same time of the day? I find it tends to crinkle if I paint in the humid morning but I live on a tropical island so YMMV.
 

Senior Space Cadet

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Make sure you use the same brand/type primer as the color coat you may be covering. Lacquer over enamel never ends well. Sometimes different layers from different brands doesn't end well even if it is enamel over enamel.
If your primer says ready to sand in 15 minutes (or something similar) it is lacquer based.
Yeah, I've had the same issue and I assumed it was because I used two different brands. Now I always check to make sure the primer and paint are from the same family, such as RUSTOLEUM American Accents (My rockets never rust ;)).
 

Mustang67

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Sand down a fair amount, use Max 2K primer, wait 10-20 min each time and apply 2-3 coats tops. Light sand then paint, use Max 2K clear over it. You will be very happy with the result.
Here is the end result using Max2K primer and Max2K clear. Also used auto paint in a rattle can. The clear has not been wet sanded or buffed yet.
 

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Bruiser

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I never made it to look at he rocket Sunday. I feared that would happen as honey do lists seem to spring from nowhere on Sundays :)

I did see it yesterday morning though and I did not see anything like in the last picture. The paint looked a little thin though so I did a very light sand and sprayed another coat on after we closed up.

This morning it looks pretty good. It does still show some sanding marks when you get close, within a foot or two. While not to my usual standards, given that this is this rocket I am going to go with it. After the shop closes tonight the body tube will become Grape.
Grape.jpg


More tomorrow,
-Bob
 

Pem Tech

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Make sure you use the same brand/type primer as the color coat you may be covering. Lacquer over enamel never ends well. Sometimes different layers from different brands doesn't end well even if it is enamel over enamel.
If your primer says ready to sand in 15 minutes (or something similar) it is lacquer based.
Even different layers from the same brand can be tragic. Found out on my new BT-60 Bonestell. Same paint, different can and the sprayed surface crinkled.
 

Bruiser

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This rocket was originally painted during my Rustoleum Painter's Touch 2x days. If it goes on well you get a real nice finish, but it's un-predictability sent me searching for something else. My last rocket was painted with DupliColor Perfect Match lacquers which are great but lacking in "scale" type colors, especially for military scale.

Well, time to do a light wet sanding in prep for today shoot. Keep your fingers crossed for the Vapor. I'll be crossing my toes too :)

-Bob
 

Bruiser

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I present the Grape Vape.....or :)

Purple Vapor.jpg


Paint came out pretty well. No problem with crackling or anything in that area. Now I just need to dig a parachute out of the stash, attach the harness and this one will be good to go.

Thanks to everyone for the ideas and encouragement to power thru.

-Bob
 

Donnager

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My experience, for whatever it's worth, is that an old can, mostly empty, will cause many more problems than a fresh can of spray paint, regardless of how well shaken.

This goes across all brands.
 

Bruiser

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It could be that the primer I started with after doing the repair caused the issues this time around. It was an older can with not much left in it.

-Bob
 

lakeroadster

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I present the Grape Vape.....or :)

View attachment 446320

Paint came out pretty well. No problem with crackling or anything in that area. Now I just need to dig a parachute out of the stash, attach the harness and this one will be good to go.

Thanks to everyone for the ideas and encouragement to power thru.

-Bob
Wow.. that looks great. I'm thinking since you've modified it, rename it "The Electric Phoenix", that would be more applicable.

list-of-colors-and-color-names.jpg


My experience, for whatever it's worth, is that an old can, mostly empty, will cause many more problems than a fresh can of spray paint, regardless of how well shaken.

This goes across all brands.
I guess the questions is how old is old? In my experience it has more to do with how the can is stored than it does the age.

I now keep my rattle cans in the house in a cupboard, yearly temperature swings from 65 to 80 F.. Some of it is 4 years old and it's still good. I used to keep the paint in the garage with yearly temperature swings from 30 to 110 F. and I was lucky to get it to last for a year.
 
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Bruiser

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I've had new can of rustoleum paint just spray badly too. I see no rhyme or reason on why Rustoleum is so unpredictable.

I am searching for a paint for my next rocket now. I was thinking of going to acrylics but the brands that have paint in military (or scale) type colors come in 1 ounce or smaller bottles. That would be a lot of bottles for a 36" long rocket with a 3" diameter. I have been looking at the model master and tamiya spray paints and they are very pricey. I like the duplicolor perfect match paints but most are metallic.

Anyone have suggestions for paint. I like lacquers better than enamels because of the drying times.

-Bob
 

Donnager

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I guess the questions is how old is old? In my experience it has more to do with how the can is stored than it does the age.

I now keep my rattle cans in the house in a cupboard, yearly temperature swings from 65 to 80 F.. Some of it is 4 years old and it's still good. I used to keep the paint in the garage with yearly temperature swings from 30 to 110 F. and I was lucky to get it to last for a year.
I don't really know. I've had 3-4 month old stuff give me trouble, and year old stuff. My paint is stored in an air conditioned/heated garage. I expect a lot of my issue is related to getting the can re-mixed properly.

For me, when a can is more than 50% empty (or less than 50% full, if you're a pessimist?), it becomes suspect, and may require caution during application. There is a big difference in applied solids and drying behavior when you first start a well-mixed can compared to when the can is less than half full (and usually less well mixed).

I still use the old stuff, because I'm cheap, but the dregs seem to bring out the worst alligator skinning, especially if I get carried away wanting to make a slick coat. I believe you can mitigate it to a point with adequate mixing (shaking), but a fresh can works better for me. If you can stand lighter coats and a little orange peel, you'll have less solvent issues.

FWIW, the best performing paints for me in a spray can are those by Seymour/MRO. Otherwise, I spray Duplicolor thinned lacquer through an HVLP touch up gun.

I really need to get into the water based stuff.
 

Old School Doug

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I present the Grape Vape.....or :)

View attachment 446320

Paint came out pretty well. No problem with crackling or anything in that area. Now I just need to dig a parachute out of the stash, attach the harness and this one will be good to go.

Thanks to everyone for the ideas and encouragement to power thru.

-Bob
I freely admit when I'm off the mark. The repairs and new paint look great! Powering through in this case was well worth the time and effort.
 
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