Another Estes Big Daddy (2162) Lawndart Questions Thread...

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If you had an Estes Big Daddy (2162) lawndart, did you apply tape to the shoulder of the nosecone?

  • Yes

    Votes: 3 33.3%
  • No

    Votes: 6 66.7%

  • Total voters
    9
I have a 38mm Big Daddy on my workbench that I'm planning on stuffing an H550 into.

Did you do anything to strengthen the body tube? I'm worried about it crumpling under the 80+G's of stress with an altimeter/tracker in the nosecone.

Yes.

I coated the interior of the rocket in polyester resin and supported the interior with fiberglass below the nose cone. The reason it was done internally is that I just wanted it to look stock, and (cringe) still show the Estes tube spirals. External should be perfectly fine. I had the same crush concern due to the nose weight, and a stock Big Daddy tube isn't remotely as stiff as LOC tubing or fiberglass. With 8-10 oz nose weight the load on that tube can be significant at high G's.

I don't know if it was necessary, but the reinforced tube is a great deal stronger than my 29mm, which has no reinforcement.

My 54mm has an exterior liner of fiberglass/epoxy, and it is stout, and pretty much in a different category.

Realistically, flying one of these is more about being able to recover it than light it. An H-550 will send it a couple thousand feet in a hurry.

Mine on an H-550 had only a very small parachute and a streamer and hit the ground hard enough to do more damage than the flight.

If you get it to pass through maxQ and back on the ground again, some of the older rocketeers will probably pat you on the back for a nice job. It will definitely be at least transonic on the flight. Most were expecting mine to shred.

Have fun with it. Good luck.
 
I lawn darted my Big Daddy using Estes New High Thrust Super C5-3 engine. This new engine has a 50 percent higher thrust than the C6 engine and is deigned for heavier rockets, BUT it did not have enough thrust for my Big Daddy rocket (8 ozs with motor). Rocket flew about 100 feet up then lawn darted. Parachute deployed after hitting ground. Rocket was OK afterwards, so I next flew the rocket using a D12-3 and rocket flew straight to about 500 feet and parachute deployed (no tape).

Repainted rocket using decanted Testors Graphite Silver. IMO metal flake silvers are the best colors for this rocket.

This is my first time posting in this forum.
 
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I have had 2 flights with my Big Daddy both were successful did put a small amount of tape to the nose cone.
 
Reawaking an older thread....

What do you all think of this mod:

https://www.rocketreviews.com/estes-big-daddy3-mike-goss.html
He extended the motor mount tube to go into the nose cone. I kind of like this, as the interior of this rocket is large, and if you just blow the ejection charge into the smaller volume of the nose cone it might be more effective. Loosely pack the chute and cord around the stuffer tube, and hopefully you're good to go.

I will be assembling one of these kits soon, and I'm thinking of trying this.

Hans.
 
Reawaking an older thread....

What do you all think of this mod:

https://www.rocketreviews.com/estes-big-daddy3-mike-goss.html
He extended the motor mount tube to go into the nose cone. I kind of like this, as the interior of this rocket is large, and if you just blow the ejection charge into the smaller volume of the nose cone it might be more effective. Loosely pack the chute and cord around the stuffer tube, and hopefully you're good to go.

I will be assembling one of these kits soon, and I'm thinking of trying this.

Hans.


Not a fan. I've seen people do this to run very large motors but I wouldn't do it for any other reason. The down sides to this is the ejection is blowing directly into the point of the nose cone. Over time you will see the plastic melt and become brittle. You could prevent this by coating the inside of the cone with a healthy amount of epoxy.

You're also going to find it difficult to pack the chute in a way that allows it to deploy cleanly without getting hung up on that tube. The other downside is you now have a long tube that sticks up above the main tube that will get bent on landing.

In my opinion you are better off cutting off the slope on the cone and installing a bulkhead. It's the simplest and cleanest solution.
 
Not a fan. I've seen people do this to run very large motors but I wouldn't do it for any other reason. The down sides to this is the ejection is blowing directly into the point of the nose cone. Over time you will see the plastic melt and become brittle. You could prevent this by coating the inside of the cone with a healthy amount of epoxy.

You're also going to find it difficult to pack the chute in a way that allows it to deploy cleanly without getting hung up on that tube. The other downside is you now have a long tube that sticks up above the main tube that will get bent on landing.

In my opinion you are better off cutting off the slope on the cone and installing a bulkhead. It's the simplest and cleanest solution.

Thanks.

If I did this, I'd use a baffle and not make the tube quite as long. Given that the tail of the cone is so long, a stuffer tube would still fit up into the cone even if the tube is, say, 1 1/2" shorter than the main tube.

But, yes, a bulkhead is also on the design table......

Hans.
 
I’ve had a couple failed recoveries on my (now shortened) Executioner which uses a very similar shoulder design as the BD cone. Both were caused by the nose cone coming part of the way out of the body tube
I had a failure the last time I flew my stock Executioner on a D12. The nose cone was blown off but the parachute stopped even with the front of the airframe. Our field is sometimes pretty soft and this is a big but very light rocket, it came down sideways and was unharmed.


And you would be correct.
Here is how you fix it.
I did essentially the same thing with mine- cut off the bottom part of the shoulder, cut out a plywood disk and glued in inside the cone. I've flown maybe a half dozen times with no problems.
 
Finally got a lawndart. I blame the dogbarf (because it usually never ends well). I’m gonna as a longer tube. I might call it a Big Doorknob or a Doorknob Daddy. The whistling sound as it went ballistic was worth it.

249DBF61-3835-4A1D-AF46-3E629E5DF51D.png
 
I test fit my nose cones before every flight by picking the rocket up by the cone. If the nose cone comes out without lifting the rocket, it's too lose. If I can completely lift the rocket by the cone then it's too tight. I'm looking for the weight of the rocket to slowly separate the body from the nose cone as I lift it up. Just a nice slow slide off.
That sounds like details to note and remember.
 
My latest write FB writeup for this issue... I'm posting it here so I can easily find it and post it again on FB when needed.

A word of caution with the BD. There seems to be a larger than average number of lawndarts with this kit. The working theory is the looseness/tightness of the nosecone, and perhaps wind, is the reason. Also, there's a lot of people that have had nothing but good luck with their BDs. Some of those people will frequently post in threads like this that there's no problem with the kit. Just think of their claims like you would if someone was say "Since *I* haven't been bitten by a shark, it's obvious that sharks don't exist". Now back to the issue at hand...

The issue works like this. The BD is a low mass/high drag rocket. If the nosecone is too loose, then when the rocket enters coast phase, the nosecone (being aerodynamic, and slightly heavy) wants to drop the lighter mass/high drag body tube and fin can. This opens a gap where the shoulder becomes exposed (there are hi-def videos and photos showing this). If the wind is up, the nosecone can "cant" (or pivot) slightly, jamming itself against the side of the body tube, preventing a total separation, but allowing the ramp that the shock cord and parachute attached to it, to open a gap slightly to the outside, thus creating a vent.

When the ejection charge fires, the nosecone, being slightly stuck, and the vent created by the ramp will then allow the pressure from the charge to vent outside of the rocket. This will then cause the nosecone to fail to separate from the rest of the rocket, leading the rocket to come down ballistically (aka as a lawndart).

It is *VITAL* that the nosecone be on snug enough to hold the rocket together when fully loaded (by adding tape as per the likely overlooked instruction), yet separate when the ejection charge fires. Or the nosecone needs to be altered to negate the problem that is caused by the shape of the back of that nosecone's shoulder.

For more on this topic, you can read about it over on TRF.

https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/big-daddy-lawn-darts-show-of-hands-please.131851/
https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/another-estes-big-daddy-2162-lawndart-questions-thread.164136/Or for video evidence, you can check out the 22:10 mark of this video...


Another link to share is:

In the following video, at the 2-3 second mark, you can see the shoulder appear from drag separation. Fortunately for the builder, the rocket did successfully deploy the parachute, likely because the gap didn't open the vent.

 
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Another option is to extend the motor tube up unto the nose cone by enlarging the hole in the bottom of the nose cone. This will cause the nose cone to be directly blown off by the ejection charge, and as a bonus removes the need for wadding to protect the parachute. the rest is a stock build.

bd_email_4.jpg

Just another idea.

Goose
 
When I was first constructing my Big Daddy, I had already seen several youtube videos that explain that you should cut off that shoulder and insert a plywood bulkhead because you'll need the extra space for the recovery system. First, the nosecone shoulder is way too long, when you cut it off, you still have more than an inch of shoulder, which is plenty, partcularly if you've got a piece of masking tape in that area to make things nice and snug. Every rocket is a series of compromises, and your job as the builder is to minimize those compromises as much as possible. So, cut the shoulder, put in a bulkhead, and that extra area I created inside the nosecone is where my parachute ends up. When the nosecone pops, the shock cord pulls the chute from the inside NC area, and I have proper deployment of my recovery system.

Now, that said, I have had some bad deployments, but never a lawn dart. I had one instance where the nose popped, but not enough to pull the chute out, so the rocket came down sideways, but landed on grass (no damage). That turned out to be a partial ejection charge from the E engine where only half the clay cap popped, and the tube got a little blocked up, and I don't think enough ejection charge made it through. I cleaned out the rocket and the next flight was perfect. Almost too perfect, my Big Daddy almost floated away.

Point is: Don't follow Estes instructions to the letter. Rely on advice from more experienced folks, and make a few mods to the rocket for more reliable performance.
 
When the nosecone pops, the shock cord pulls the chute from the inside NC area, and I have proper deployment of my recovery system.
This is key to deployment. The chute needs to be loose enough in the BT for the Nose to pull it out.
The ejection charge only needs to pop off the nose not push out the chute.
 
I'm in the group that thinks it's a badly designed nose cone. It gets partway ejected and creates a vent for the ejection charge gas while there's still a lot of shoulder to get out of the BT. If that much shoulder is needed, it should at least have a flat bottom so it doesn't uncork until it has velocity and hardly any contact left. It can be made to work if the rocketeer gets the individual setup per flight just right, but it's not something you'd call robust.
 
True story...at a club launch earlier this year, I was setting something up at the LP pad and the guy next to me had a beautiful Big Daddy rocket.

I complemented him on it and then asked if he modified due to the nose cone issue. He aaid he hasn't and hadn't heard of such and have never had an issue.


The launch then proceeds and his BD lawndarted! Luckily it didn't look too bad since it didn't go too high.

So others with stock BDs should use that as a lesson.
 
Another option is to extend the motor tube up unto the nose cone by enlarging the hole in the bottom of the nose cone. This will cause the nose cone to be directly blown off by the ejection charge, and as a bonus removes the need for wadding to protect the parachute. the rest is a stock build.

View attachment 537290

Just another idea.

Goose
I had the Lawn Dart problem with my BD back this past summer. I had the same idea you had. I started a thread asking about if this idea would work. I built a BIGGER DADDY with a longer body tube when I repaired mine. I haven't tried it out since the repair and I don't know if my strongest 24mm engine, a C11-3 will be enough to lift it. A D12-3 is the same dimension so maybe I should try that? Here's the link to the thread I started. Any comments or results of your launches would be appreciated.
Don
https://www.rocketryforum.com/threa...eployment-will-this-work.175686/#post-2350752
 
I had the Lawn Dart problem with my BD back this past summer. I had the same idea you had. I started a thread asking about if this idea would work. I built a BIGGER DADDY with a longer body tube when I repaired mine. I haven't tried it out since the repair and I don't know if my strongest 24mm engine, a C11-3 will be enough to lift it. A D12-3 is the same dimension so maybe I should try that? Here's the link to the thread I started. Any comments or results of your launches would be appreciated.
Don
https://www.rocketryforum.com/threa...eployment-will-this-work.175686/#post-2350752
You could really elongate it. Works great.

https://www.launchlabrocketry.com/shop/p/estesleviathanbigdaddyconversionkit
 
Longer rockets tend to be heavier, and less draggy, so the issue doesn't seem to be as big of a problem. I'm not ruling it out from happening, but the likelihood seems to be lower.
 
You could really elongate it. Works great.
I did the extra extension tube and tried it with a C11-3. It worked sorta. The motor wasn't strong enough with the C11 so the next one will be an E12-6. I added a ply disc to the bottom of the nose cone but don't see any need to remove the slant. But in the end I extended the blast tube up to the top of the 3" extension. So it goes inside the nose cone the distance of the shoulder as the nose cone slides over it. I had to open the hole in the base to at least 1".
Don
 

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I did the extra extension tube and tried it with a C11-3. It worked sorta. The motor wasn't strong enough with the C11 so the next one will be an E12-6. I added a ply disc to the bottom of the nose cone but don't see any need to remove the slant. But in the end I extended the blast tube up to the top of the 3" extension. So it goes inside the nose cone the distance of the shoulder as the nose cone slides over it. I had to open the hole in the base to at least 1".
Don
I'm sure the E12-6 will be fine...

 
Have you thumbed through the MESS reports?

http://www.motorcato.org/
Never heard of them other than seeing some mention of failure reports. Thanks for the link to them. Looks like there was an explosion of the E12-x 1 week ago and 3 last year. They seem to have had a high failure rate from 2019 thru 2021.

Latest report 4 Feb 2023: "Estes kit 7240 left the launch pad and about 20 feet off the pad a very loud report was experienced. It sounded like a gunshot. The Estes E12-6 motor completely destroyed the rocket forward of the boattail. A silver burn mark completely encompassed the side of the rocket as well as areas of burnt paint."

Don
 
Is that Hawaii? It reminds me of Hawaii.
Waipahu on Oahu. We'll be launching the MPR on March 4th if anyone's in the neighborhood.

Whoa!!! I'm not so keen to use an Estes E12-6 anymore after watching that video! I'm new to rocketry. Does this sorta thing happen often?

I need to find the date code and more about those failure reports mentioned somewhere.
Don
If you launch enough, it happens. I don't recall having any 18mm, D12, or E16 Catos. Plenty of 13mm, C11, E12, and F15 Catos. Estes is really good about replacing motors and rockets if you send them photos.

Remember, we choose to launch rockets, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, (or something like that)

Gary's had a number of overpressures with composite 18mm motors. He also had a F15 Cato at 8:00.

 
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