ANOTHER CATO...

Discussion in 'Propulsion' started by JARED S JAYNES, Mar 28, 2019.

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  1. Apr 17, 2019 #121

    djs

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    Thanks Tim for the info! Glad to hear there is a fix.
     
  2. Apr 17, 2019 #122

    Banzai88

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    Good deal on the fix, bad deal on it being in such a long 'run' of dates.

    The silver lining here is that it's a relatively simple AND forgiving fix.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2019
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  3. Apr 28, 2019 #123

    JARED S JAYNES

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    Easy to fix, less to forgive lost over 40+hrs of work on 2 rockets not to mention the cost of the scratch builds. My 38mm rockets will fly on aerotechs from now on still no word from my vendor on the 4 motors or 2 grain cases I lost.
     
  4. Apr 29, 2019 #124

    Banzai88

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    Part of rocketry. Every manufacturer has had some CATO issue. It's a lather, rinse, repeat cycle.
     
  5. Apr 29, 2019 #125

    JARED S JAYNES

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    Agree to disagree
     
  6. Apr 30, 2019 #126

    BayouRat

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    Use a different vendor.
     
  7. May 1, 2019 #127

    JARED S JAYNES

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    Again, brilliant.
     
  8. May 1, 2019 #128

    jnobels

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    Not to be overly flippant, but this is a hobby where we’re basically burning time and money for the fun of it. I kiss every rocket goodbye before hitting the launch button. Stuff blowing up on the pad most certainly sucks, but it’s just one of the dozens of ways a flight can end badly. Trees, wind, thermals, ejection failures, chute failure, power lines, water, corn fields, the whole thing catching fire....... No point fuming over it. At least you’ll get the casing replaced and still have some spare parts....

    Anecdotally, I’ve never seen a CTI Cato. Have witnessed/experienced a few spectacular Aerotech failures though.

    Swapping motor vendors out of spite won’t really improve your odds of taking an undamaged rocket home. But yeah, I understand why you’d want to give your money to the competition for a while...
     
  9. May 1, 2019 #129

    Banzai88

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    Just like racing, if you can"t afford to wreck it, don't take it off the trailer.
     
  10. May 1, 2019 #130

    dr wogz

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    I have seen a few. Biggest failure is forgetting to put the reload into the casing before inserting it into the rocket. that's a spectacular CATO... really really sad, but spectacular..
     
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  11. May 1, 2019 #131

    jahall4

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    ... certainly reasonable expectations, but 2 things. First, I understood the changing vendors was because he had been unsuccessful getting the hardware replaced which does not surprise me. Second, the things you mentioned that can happen (except for commercial motor failure [the subject of this post]) can be partially or fully mitigated by the flyer. A flawed design or manufactured motor often cannot unless its a "known" issue. The "fuming" is that design and manufacture defects are avoidable by the manufacturer.
     
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  12. May 1, 2019 #132

    Banzai88

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    I think that everyone would reasonably agree on that point......yet every manufacturer, from time to time, has CATO issues.

    The fact that we have such a small, niche hobby that probably isn't REALLLY that economically important in the grand scheme of things means that we have very little recourse. If there were millions in it, there would be more manufacturers, more stock, and more vendors......but that's ALL been relatively static for quite some time now.

    It's really rather binary, either you play the game or you don't.

    If there were more stringent governmental safeguards or 'official' backlash for the manufacturers, they might simply conclude that it's more economically viable to stay OUT of the amatuer rocketry motor business, and pursue further contracts in commercial/military pursuits instead. No one wants that.

    Perhaps NAR/TRA/et al have the ability to exert some pressure on AT/CTI? I have no idea, but if that's something you want, lobby your chosen organization's board.

    Further, if you want 100% in house design, build, and Six Sigma level field guarntees, your going to have to make it yourself (which is possible) or get either a boutique (limited production run) or a prohibitively expensive corporate product....probably with a downward sales trend that ends in a financial death spiral. I think that there's a pretty good balance between reilability, availability, affordability, and safety in today's market. ALL could be improved, but at what cost? If amatuer rocketry products were a license to print money, we'd all be in line to buy printing presses!

    As a tiny niche hobby, it comes with some inherent risks. Vote with your wallet, be that at your vendor or your chosen piece part manufacturer......it seems to me an exercise in trading the devil you know for the devil you don't.
     
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  13. May 1, 2019 #133

    jahall4

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    I would argue that its not when a single motor can have potentially 3 bulletins issued against it. Simply put I would pay more for more dependable motors and I suspect most flyers wood, but unfortunately until it gets as bad to require a bulletin to determine which motors are more dependable, assessment is largely anecdotal. Of course at that point, the bulletin then mitigates the risk but only after flyers like the OP are used as proverbial guinea pigs. :(

    BTW... can't vote with your wallet when there is little or no choice. Other than not vote at all which could be why things are relatively static.
     
  14. May 1, 2019 #134

    Banzai88

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    Them stop buying CTI...that'll learn 'em a thing or two. As for your unreviewed and deep stock, that's an entirely self inflicted injury.

    Every motor producer puts out CATO bombs from time to time. That is a CONSTANT in hobby rocketry. Heck, Estes is the laughing stock for their big motors being a 50/50 crap shoot.

    You have a pile of options with your wallet, here are a few:
    • Play the game knowing the rules
    • Make your own motors
    • Start a motor company and have a perfect success rate in the field
    • Take up knitting
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2019
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  15. May 1, 2019 #135

    jahall4

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    Why would I do that? I have never had a CTI motor CATO (kow) and that's all I have ever flown above G impulse. Have had a few small AT motors CATO.

    Not sure what you mean by "unreviewed", but "deep stock"... around here you buy the motors you can get when you can get them, and use them when you can. Consider yourself fortunate that you have the funds and the access to keep your stock "shallow". Nothing "self inflicted" I assure you, a touch arrogant of you to assume so.
     
  16. May 1, 2019 #136

    Banzai88

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    Deleted. I give up, I'll be taking up knitting.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2019
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  17. May 3, 2019 #137

    Charles_McG

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    IMG_0703.jpg
     
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  18. May 3, 2019 #138

    djs

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    Is that a CTI case between the two birds? Where is the rear closure?
     
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  19. May 3, 2019 #139

    Loki Research

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    Sorry for sticking my nose in here, but are you really considering all of the reliable reload choices that are available to you?
    16 reloads from G thru J can be shipped by USPS surface mail without hazmat.
    No on-site dealer required.
     
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  20. May 3, 2019 #140

    Loki Research

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    double post deleted
     
  21. May 3, 2019 #141

    grouch

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    Umm, Scott...29mm motors. Just saying. I'd love to see some 240 and 360ns whites from you. I'm pretty sure others would as well. Maybe make a small batch once a year or so or do some pre-orders. I'd be in like Flynn..who ever he is.
     
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  22. May 3, 2019 #142

    markg

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    My favourite motors! I've had lots of success with 38mm and 54mm Loki.
     
  23. May 3, 2019 #143

    grouch

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    I gotta say some of the attitudes I see here are pretty disappointing. Non of us would fly if we thought there was a reasonable chance our hard work would be blown up and knitting is not the answer.

    I think we owe Mr. Jaynes a thank you for bringing this to light. I wonder if he didn't take the time to document the issues he was having with the single grain blues, how long would it have been before the issue was discovered and remedied, or owned up to?

    Jared if you dig 38/120 loads and feel weird about your vendor and warranty issue, let me second Scott K's suggestion. The little Loki whites rock and they ship straight to your house without any troubles. They are a powerful and potent little motor as are all motors he makes. Personally I'd be flying a lot more Loki if there were a 29mm option but I realize I am a small minority. Anywho, worth a look.
     
  24. May 5, 2019 #144

    jahall4

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    Glad you did. It's ironic that I read this post having just minutes ago decided NOT to fly one of my rockets on the 11th because my regular vendor does not have any AT 38/600 hardware in stock right now. He does however have in stock your I405s and your hardware to fly them. I still have a few questions, but I think you may have a convert for 38s. There was another post just today about yet another CTI 38 CATO that my have been over pressurized but in a 6XL.

    Thank You!
     
  25. May 5, 2019 #145

    Ez2cDave

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    Yes, Macrame is a much better way to go . . .
     
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  26. May 8, 2019 #146

    Zman1961

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    Has anyone tried the posted CTI solution for the Pro 38 1G and 2G? I will be launching this coming Saturday (first of the season for our club), and I have the Pro 38 hardware. My only available HPR rocket will require the 1G or 2G, and I'm certain our vendor would not yet have received newer stock with the corrected pellets. I will give it a try and post the results. The suggested fix seems like it could introduce other problems when handling the grains - the phrase "what could possibly go wrong?" comes to mind.
     
  27. May 23, 2019 #147

    tbonerocketeer

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    Email me and I can send you a copy. Sales@csrocketry.com
     

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