An "R"-powered rocket build

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Guys you are in no way derailing this build thread with your discussion about launch angle and wind.

This thread is about the entire project from it's conception to the time the rocket touches down on the playa.

Your inputs are interesting to read and are valuable.

Having like many of you watched thousands of rockets from the smallest to the Big Dawgs (including Space X) it's always fascinating to watch how the environment affects the flight.

Even small variations in the jet stream have potentially catastrophic consequences for rockets of all sizes.

Keep it up.

Chuck C.
 
It could be done Dave but for reasonable safety considerations it was requested by the KloudBusters that the rocket be launched off-vertical 5-7 degrees away from the crowd (to the east).

Knowing those Kansas winds that generally come from the west in late August it would also mean a possible 10 mph tailwind.

Chuck C.

Chuck,

I have never flown anyplace but the rocket pasture. More likely than not the winds at Air Fest/LDRS cone out of the south not the West. However I understand your decision not to fly. Don’t take this as an argument for you to fly the rocket. What Kloudbusters is telling you to do is not any different than any other rocket launched at the pasture. They are all tilted away from the crowd. I look forward to the show & tell.
 
Chuck,

I have never flown anyplace but the rocket pasture. More likely than not the winds at Air Fest/LDRS cone out of the south not the West. However I understand your decision not to fly. Don’t take this as an argument for you to fly the rocket. What Kloudbusters is telling you to do is not any different than any other rocket launched at the pasture. They are all tilted away from the crowd. I look forward to the show & tell.

Absolutely Dave and I appreciate that.

The decision not to launch is in no way a reflection on what I think of the KloudBuster's conditions for this launch.

I've said it many times that these guys have nothing but respect from me. They are at the top of the field in rocketry and are well-known for safe (and fun!) launches.

My concern is getting this rocket straight up on liftoff so it stands the best chance to deploy the drogue with the minimum speed possible. The recovery system on this rocket is nothing short of bulletproof. But that doesn't mean the maximum loads should be tested.

Again... thanks. Looking forward to LDRS 38 although I'll admit it's going to be hard not to fly this there!

Chuck C.
 
Not sure how you get that conclusion. What is the definition of "safer" you are using?

A slow rocket launch and angled into the wind will accentuate the gravity turn and end with a more horizontal flight in the end.

If you aim a little downwind the weather-cocking will bring the rocket more vertical.

Typically aiming upwind minimises landing distance from launch, and aiming downwind is better for altitude. I went through all this simulation for my recent O-M flight. FYI I ended up flying with a vertical rail.

I do not believe there is such a thing as gravity turn. Drop a rocket in a vacuum the rocket doesn't turn. It's the moment created by the fins that turn the rocket. But you are correct that the horizontal velcocity component at meco is conserved .

Min lunch velocity to get proper flow over the find increases with AOA. Launching away from the wind requires higher speed all other things being equal
 
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I do not believe there is such a thing as gravity turn. Drop a rocket in a vacuum the rocket doesn't turn. It's the moment created by the fins that turn the rocket.

Gravity turn only exists when the rocket is under thrust and not vertical. It happens without atmospheric affects. The thrust acts through the center axis of the rocket. Gravity acts through the CG. The resulting force rotates the rocket. It also imparts a rotational inertia which continues to turn the rocket after motor burnout.
This happens in the atmosphere even at zero angle of attack.
 
Gravity turn only exists when the rocket is under thrust and not vertical. It happens without atmospheric affects. The thrust acts through the center axis of the rocket. Gravity acts through the CG. The resulting force rotates the rocket. It also imparts a rotational inertia which continues to turn the rocket after motor burnout.
This happens in the atmosphere even at zero angle of attack.
I am getting old, can you show me a free body diagram which shows the moment?

Edit: ok I see it now. Mea Culpa.
 
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It could be done Dave but for reasonable safety considerations it was requested by the KloudBusters that the rocket be launched off-vertical 5-7 degrees away from the crowd (to the east).

Knowing those Kansas winds that generally come from the west in late August it would also mean a possible 10 mph tailwind.

This old used-to-be-bold pilot after 35 years of making every dumb mistake known to man flying isn’t comfortable with those conditions. So I made the decision to scrub the LDRS launch but still bring the rocket up for show and tell.

Not sure what the plan will be after that. Lots of fun building and testing big motors for flight. Again it will be good to have the rocket evaluated for safety. It’s my first build in many years but I’m quite confident she’s going to be a beautifully safe flyer. Built like a tank lol.

Chuck C.
Chuck, I am going to have to step up to take the hit for the project launch delay. I know, I know, you were trying to protect me, but being of sound mind and not so sound body, here goes.

When I first started the design parameters of "the motor" I was the one that selected the propellant from my inventory of formulas that would give Chuck what he asked for. Not a 10/1 thrust to weight ratio popular with a few, more like a slower lift off, 6/1 or so. I myself like slower lift offs, becasue I like to see my motor perform. And so I selected a Bates grain config, 4" core, Wayside White Improved (a formula that I have shared a hundred times, I always get a huge grin when I am at a launch and someone sucessfully launches a rocket with a motor that "he" built, using one of my formulas that I always share).

But when I started the propellant design, and ordered the convolute tubing, and got the chems together, the lift off weight was estimated to be around 400 lbs. As it got more robust, the thrust to weight dropped, which brought up concerns from the LDRS launch organizers. A concern that was shared by me.

Now before I continue, the grains made are not wasted. We can still use them in other motor designs with a faster burn array of grains at the nozzle. I have done that a bunch. My old mentor motor builder, Jim Mitchell of Thunderflame, after we launched yet another Aurora flight using a mix of formula grains for a unique "Red, White, and Blue" transition burn (it was afterall, a 4th of July launch) told me " Mr Pat, I believe you have mastered the art of combining formulations in a Bates grain pressure vessel".

So, as the "build" continued, the project put on a few lbs. Which would have been no problem, we could have adapted.

But here is what happened.

Been puttering around the ranch trying to keep away from sharp things and stressful situations. I am still working my solar business, but only until 12:30 or so. And no more overseas work. Under strict orders from Dr Lauretta and my cardio surgeon to stay out of the heat and harms way.
I had a heart attack in New Mexico in May. I was on a good sized solar job north of Tucumcari, finished up on May 22 (my birthday), and sent my 3 hands back to Texas. I was supposed to load up the trailer May 23, present the bill to the client, and back home. But I woke up that morning May 23, at 2AM, couldn't breath, chest hurt, started throwing up around 5 am. Found a sheriff around 8am, he called the EMT's, BP at 186/168. Went for a ride in an ambulance, they shoved some nitro pills in me, BP dropped to 60/28. At this point I figured I was fixing to see my Lord and Savior (yes, I know where I am going when the time comes) but instead got to stay in a hospital in Taos. Get back to Texas, BP stabilized, but dizzy all the time. Doc ordered an MRI. Apparently the heart attack dislodged 2 clots in my leg and they took up camp in my brain. One in my frontal lope, the other in my cerebellum. They removed the clot in my cerebellum thru a stint retrieval procedure called Trevo, which is basically a stealth thrombectomy. The clot in my frontal lope is being dealt with using blood thinners Eliquis and Lovenox.

Just got out of the hospital yesterday, had 2 stints put in. When I recover from that, I have to have more stints, scheduled for Aug 12, and then probably a bypass, to repair the damage the heart attack caused and an accident I had when I was working overseas (pulmonary embolism) in Germany, got whacked in the chest by a heavy piece of equipment.
Just turned 64. A clot and subsequent stroke killed my Grandmother at that age, trying real hard not to follow in her footsteps.

But doing better and on the mend.

So I had to stand down, not knowing what my future contained. To be fair to Chuck, and the Project, and to all you folks, my "rocket family", I decided that was the best course of action I could take. And the project, thanks to you all and Chucks tremendous "can do in the face of adversity" attitude, survived and thrived.

Depending on what August 12 brings, I may still be able to get back up on the saddle to help Chuck with the motor for possibly Balls. I figure with or without me, he can still pull it off.

But LDRS is out for me.

My most sincere apologies.

Pat G
 
Pat Gordzelik is a good man as most of here know. His willingness to share his knowledge of motors is priceless. There is also someone else out there who wants to remain nameless but is providing two of the top Q and R motor casings in the country.

For Pat getting to 64 is a good thing and so is listening to what his heart is trying to tell him.

We need Pat up and running... and trust me for those who don't know Pat G you're not going to find a guy who is not only a Jack-of-all-trades but a true leader of men.

I can't give a higher compliment.

Chuck C.
 
Now I have a question for all y'all:

Shear pins... am finally getting to the point where I can start thinking about them. For 8" two-stage "O" powered rockets I used only (4) #4 nylon screws and they performed flawlessly.

For this 12" Q and R powered rocket with quite a bit more speed I'd like some input on the size and quantity of shear pins you'd recommend. Of course these will be tested. I'm thinking of #6 nylon screws but am still considering the quantity.

Thanks.

Chuck C.
 
Chuck, I am going to have to step up to take the hit for the project launch delay. I know, I know, you were trying to protect me, but being of sound mind and not so sound body, here goes.

When I first started the design parameters of "the motor" I was the one that selected the propellant from my inventory of formulas that would give Chuck what he asked for. Not a 10/1 thrust to weight ratio popular with a few, more like a slower lift off, 6/1 or so. I myself like slower lift offs, becasue I like to see my motor perform. And so I selected a Bates grain config, 4" core, Wayside White Improved (a formula that I have shared a hundred times, I always get a huge grin when I am at a launch and someone sucessfully launches a rocket with a motor that "he" built, using one of my formulas that I always share).

But when I started the propellant design, and ordered the convolute tubing, and got the chems together, the lift off weight was estimated to be around 400 lbs. As it got more robust, the thrust to weight dropped, which brought up concerns from the LDRS launch organizers. A concern that was shared by me.

Now before I continue, the grains made are not wasted. We can still use them in other motor designs with a faster burn array of grains at the nozzle. I have done that a bunch. My old mentor motor builder, Jim Mitchell of Thunderflame, after we launched yet another Aurora flight using a mix of formula grains for a unique "Red, White, and Blue" transition burn (it was afterall, a 4th of July launch) told me " Mr Pat, I believe you have mastered the art of combining formulations in a Bates grain pressure vessel".

So, as the "build" continued, the project put on a few lbs. Which would have been no problem, we could have adapted.

But here is what happened.

Been puttering around the ranch trying to keep away from sharp things and stressful situations. I am still working my solar business, but only until 12:30 or so. And no more overseas work. Under strict orders from Dr Lauretta and my cardio surgeon to stay out of the heat and harms way.
I had a heart attack in New Mexico in May. I was on a good sized solar job north of Tucumcari, finished up on May 22 (my birthday), and sent my 3 hands back to Texas. I was supposed to load up the trailer May 23, present the bill to the client, and back home. But I woke up that morning May 23, at 2AM, couldn't breath, chest hurt, started throwing up around 5 am. Found a sheriff around 8am, he called the EMT's, BP at 186/168. Went for a ride in an ambulance, they shoved some nitro pills in me, BP dropped to 60/28. At this point I figured I was fixing to see my Lord and Savior (yes, I know where I am going when the time comes) but instead got to stay in a hospital in Taos. Get back to Texas, BP stabilized, but dizzy all the time. Doc ordered an MRI. Apparently the heart attack dislodged 2 clots in my leg and they took up camp in my brain. One in my frontal lope, the other in my cerebellum. They removed the clot in my cerebellum thru a stint retrieval procedure called Trevo, which is basically a stealth thrombectomy. The clot in my frontal lope is being dealt with using blood thinners Eliquis and Lovenox.

Just got out of the hospital yesterday, had 2 stints put in. When I recover from that, I have to have more stints, scheduled for Aug 12, and then probably a bypass, to repair the damage the heart attack caused and an accident I had when I was working overseas (pulmonary embolism) in Germany, got whacked in the chest by a heavy piece of equipment.
Just turned 64. A clot and subsequent stroke killed my Grandmother at that age, trying real hard not to follow in her footsteps.

But doing better and on the mend.

So I had to stand down, not knowing what my future contained. To be fair to Chuck, and the Project, and to all you folks, my "rocket family", I decided that was the best course of action I could take. And the project, thanks to you all and Chucks tremendous "can do in the face of adversity" attitude, survived and thrived.

Depending on what August 12 brings, I may still be able to get back up on the saddle to help Chuck with the motor for possibly Balls. I figure with or without me, he can still pull it off.

But LDRS is out for me.

My most sincere apologies.

Pat G
Holy cow Pat! Praying for a safe and speedy recovery my friend.......
 
You're in my prayers as well, Pat. Speedy recovery, and glad you're still with us here!
 
Pat Gordzelik is a good man as most of here know. His willingness to share his knowledge of motors is priceless. There is also someone else out there who wants to remain nameless but is providing two of the top Q and R motor casings in the country.

For Pat getting to 64 is a good thing and so is listening to what his heart is trying to tell him.

We need Pat up and running... and trust me for those who don't know Pat G you're not going to find a guy who is not only a Jack-of-all-trades but a true leader of men.

I can't give a higher compliment.

Chuck C.
I see Chuck is still sucking up to get that good looking hardware filled up....

But thanks buddy. I see I have you fooled...
 
Pat, I don't know you, but we're brothers. See you up there! Meanwhile, no rush!

Chuck, I use three #8-32 screws in my 8" FG birds. As seen here:



I recommend doing some calculations to see what kind of retention strength you're going to need at burnout and at apogee charge.
 
Pat,

Prayers for your recovery and coming “procedures”. We will miss you and ‘Retta at the rocket pasture but that’s ok take care of yourself so we can have you around for a long long time.
 
Chuck, that has to be a pic of you as a baby....looks just like you! ;)
They are 1 1/2", easy to cut to the desired length and bevel the cut end on my sander. Been doing #2 and #4 nylon screws this way for a long time, pinning airframes and nose cones. Works fine. If you actually do use #6 let me know how long you need them and I'll cut and bevel them and send them to you.
 
That length may work just fine in case they decide to wiggle a bit in flight.

Awesome. Thanks Jim.

Chuck C.
 
Pat Debbie and I are wishing you the very best. I'll never forget the hospitality you showed us when we came up to Amarillo for a launch many moons ago.

David and Debbie Bachelder
 
Thanks everyone!
And no worries, I'm getting better everyday!
Retta told me if I woos out and let this get the better of me, she's gonna cremate me, put me in an urn above the fireplace, and sing "Kitty Kat craves Crave" everyday to me.
That's powerful survival incentive there.
She can't sing, and I absolutely hate that jingle.
 
(1) Chuck, I am going to have to step up to take the hit for the project launch delay. I know, I know, you were trying to protect me, but being of sound mind and not so sound body, here goes.

(2) At this point I figured I was fixing to see my Lord and Savior (yes, I know where I am going when the time comes) but instead got to stay in a hospital in Taos.

(3) So I had to stand down, not knowing what my future contained. To be fair to Chuck, and the Project, and to all you folks, my "rocket family", I decided that was the best course of action I could take. And the project, thanks to you all and Chucks tremendous "can do in the face of adversity" attitude, survived and thrived.

(4) My most sincere apologies.

Pat G

Pat,

(1) Chuck has the back of his people, at all times, as I have his. After reading your post, your health must come first. Rocketry, even at this scale, is just a Hobby, in the end.

(2) I am a Born-Again Southern Baptist and, "from my chair", a man who openly and boldly shares his faith in God, as you did, shows the true nature of his character, every time he does !

(3) My motto, not just in Rocketry, is "Failure is not an option . . . Adapt & overcome" ! People often interpret that phrase, in many different ways. However, when it comes to me, I practice it in its most concrete & straightforward manner which, for the most part, means to never submit to the pressure of naysayers, keep working diligently , solve the problem, and drive forward to success, even if is "steps on someone's toes", along the way ! ( As you might imagine, my "popularity" occasionally suffers - LOL ! )

You and your family are your priority now, Pat . . . God bless you and I will be praying for you !

(4) Totally unnecessary, but your apologies are graciously accepted, sir !

Dave F.

STEELY-EYED MISSILE MEN - AVATAR.jpg
 
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Now I have a question for all y'all:

Shear pins... am finally getting to the point where I can start thinking about them. For 8" two-stage "O" powered rockets I used only (4) #4 nylon screws and they performed flawlessly.

For this 12" Q and R powered rocket with quite a bit more speed I'd like some input on the size and quantity of shear pins you'd recommend. Of course these will be tested. I'm thinking of #6 nylon screws but am still considering the quantity.

Thanks.

Chuck C.

Chuck,

(1) Is the airframe totally vented to allow internal pressure to equalize, during ascent ?

(2) Since this is your first experience using Charge Cannons, do you think it would be wise to do some ground-testing with them first, before making a determination about the number and size of Shear Pins ?

Dave F.

STEELY-EYED MISSILE MEN - AVATAR.jpg
 
testing deployment on the ground with unknowns is a good thing
I tested several BP amounts on my newest rocket since it uses shear pins and deployment bags
One issue I ran into which was unexpected, the sewing I did on the deployment bag ripped out, I fixed that and I made it much more robust
 
Chuck, that has to be a pic of you as a baby....looks just like you! ;)
They are 1 1/2", easy to cut to the desired length and bevel the cut end on my sander. Been doing #2 and #4 nylon screws this way for a long time, pinning airframes and nose cones. Works fine. If you actually do use #6 let me know how long you need them and I'll cut and bevel them and send them to you.

Chuck,

(1) Is the airframe totally vented to allow internal pressure to equalize, during ascent ?

(2) Since this is your first experience using Charge Cannons, do you think it would be wise to do some ground-testing with them first, before making a determination about the number and size of Shear Pins ?

Dave F.

View attachment 389761


All my bigger rockets have used charge cannons with success. No failure as they are redundant and bulletproof.

Granted not at this level but testing will be done.

Of course the size and amount of shear pins will be found during testing. Just looking for a starting point. Going to start with (4) #6 nylon screws and increase the number of them if it looks like it's safe to do so.

And yes the rocket is vented.

Thanks!

Chuck C.
 
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