An "R"-powered rocket build

Discussion in 'High Power Rocketry (HPR)' started by Rail Dawg, Nov 30, 2018.

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  1. Nov 30, 2018 #31

    boatgeek

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    Laying up glass using a 24" sonotube as a mandrel wouldn't be terribly hard with the right rig. It would take a few hands, but I think something like Jim Jarvis' setup for rolling carbon tubes would be pretty effective. You'd probably want glass rather than carbon for cost-effectiveness. The coupler and nose cone are harder, but you might be able to do an internal layup once you have the tube laid. 24"-30" is an awful lot of room. On the other hand, you might be able to do a HED-style deployment out of the nose cone with no internal coupler.
     
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  2. Nov 30, 2018 #32

    ksaves2

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    Shoot, You're in good hands motor and safety-wise. Is this going to be a screamer or a big a--ed, big rocket entertainment flight? I see different sizes of tubing being discussed. Kurt
     
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  3. Nov 30, 2018 #33

    Rail Dawg

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    Looking for a lower altitude crowd-pleaser.

    12” altitude-buster is easier just use G-12 tubing but for stability and fun looking upwards of 30”.

    Listening to all ideas.

    Chuck
     
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  4. Nov 30, 2018 #34

    Rail Dawg

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    Good stuff.

    Yes a nosecone deployment would sure eliminate some complexity.

    But sectioning the rocket allows access to things like the electronics and the top of the motor.

    These are fun decisions. Once made you all will see the entire build process.

    Moved the Q casing into the Rocket Shed. A 30x50 metal building with tons of space. Actually shined up the aluminum casing lol.

    Still looking for a Rocket Designer with RockSim or Open Rocket.

    Chuck
     
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  5. Nov 30, 2018 #35

    ThirstyBarbarian

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    I've heard of the JLCR being used for chute reefing or staged deployment of a chute, but I've never seen it myself or read any details about it. My joke was mostly about the fact I expect this project will need a BIG chute, and the JLCR is probably a bit lightweight to handle something this big.
     
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  6. Nov 30, 2018 #36

    Rail Dawg

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    OK talking with Pat G. he’s pushing for a 30” diameter big rocket.

    That then is the decision.

    I’m curious about simply gluing a few sheets of G10 together for fins and then attaching to the airframe using multiple layers of carbon.

    Yes there is a weight penalty but with a longer rocket we can get the CG forward.

    This won’t be a super-fast flight. Flutter shouldn’t be a concern.

    Going with 30” sonotube wrapped using Jim Jarvis’ method. Plenty of 2 x 4’s for strength and forward weight.

    That’s a start. Pick apart as needed.

    Chuck
     
  7. Nov 30, 2018 #37

    snrkl

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    CATO in Sydney did a pretty good write up on the nosecone construction for his full scale patriot here:

    https://forum.ausrocketry.com/viewtopic.php?t=5308&start=120

    He used the hot wire cut polystyrene foam and glass followed by acetone removal of the styrene.
     
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  8. Dec 1, 2018 #38

    Pat Gordzelik

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    Hello folks, Pat G here. Been a long time since I posted anything here, It's about time methinks to end that drought.

    Thanks Chuck for contacting me about this project, it is a good time for me as I have retired from working overseas, and although I am plenty busy with my ranch and alternative energy business, I needed another bone to chew on.
    Q motors are excellent bones!

    I'll be posting details about the motor and our progress along with Chuck, so stay tuned!

    Good to be back.

    Pat G
     
  9. Dec 1, 2018 #39

    Steve Shannon

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    Great to hear from you, Pat!
     
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  10. Dec 1, 2018 #40

    DAllen

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    Ok...now things got REALLY interesting!

    This is gettin' good folks!
     
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  11. Dec 1, 2018 #41

    DAllen

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    Been a while since I've seen Pat...Only met him once in person but we've chatted a few times online.

    Ahhh memories. :)
    319106_2114003042085_2065737937_n.jpg
     
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  12. Dec 1, 2018 #42

    Pat Gordzelik

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    Chuck, the venue decision is yours, and I will respect that and the launch location because bottom line, you are the Boss. And I know you love Blackrock, heck, I do too.
    But The Playa can be a crap shoot weather wise and few days, and since this project, by design, because yours truly thinks rockets are necessary evils so I can see my motor perform, is not going to go incredibly high.

    There is another site we should really consider.

    Lots of folks.
    Lots of support.
    Great recovery field.
    Wonderful waivers.

    And good looking corn fed babes (ouch Retta, quit kicking me!)

    Argonia, Kansas. LDRS 2019.

    And I just KNOW Bob Brown would welcome us with open arms!!
    hmmmmmm..

    Pat G
     
  13. Dec 1, 2018 #43

    BBrown

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    I bet we could find a suitable pad to fly this project from!
     
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  14. Dec 1, 2018 #44

    Rail Dawg

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    Consider it done!

    (Got to get my rear to work it looks like.)

    Honored to have the Motor Master on our side!

    And yes I’m also graciously asking the KLOUDbusters for their permission.

    Chuck
     
  15. Dec 1, 2018 #45

    dhbarr

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    I volunteer for grunting and lifting and other simple minded efforts.
     
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  16. Dec 1, 2018 #46

    Nick@JET

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    Something that large - less than 10 months away - keep it simple, it will still be spectacular. I’ll put Argonia back on the map to watch this! Who doesn’t love Argonia anyway -
    30” by 20’ - four big fins - Nose cone shoot cannon.
    I have zero experience with a rocket of this size but would think something that long is a lot of rocket to come down in 2 pieces. NC would be fine but a 20’ air frame surviving touch down and fall over may be tough. 3 pieces may be better?

    Impressive ambition on this project - I can’t wait to watch! Thanks for posting. I have kicking around the idea of a 12” QCC on a puny O so this willl be inspirational
     
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  17. Dec 1, 2018 #47

    Ez2cDave

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    Making big nose cones . . . See PDF file below !

    Dave F.
     

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  18. Dec 1, 2018 #48

    BBrown

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    Chuck,
    If you decide to bring this project to LDRS 38, rest assured we will have the infrastructure to handle a project of this magnitude. Even though the launch is still 10 months away, already I know of 4 P impulse flights and another Q motor flight planning on coming. Our plan is to have 24 pads capable of Flying M’s or greater off them and additionally several really big hydraulic pads to fly anything complex O and above. Best of all the range will be laid out so that the time it takes putting a monster like you are concidering on a pad won’t effect the flying of other projects. The one thing we have a lot of is space!
    Our LDRS website (www.ldrs38.org) will be fully up and operational right after the first of the year. If you have any questions or concerns about our capability I suspect Pat will vouch for us.
    Bob Brown
     
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  19. Dec 1, 2018 #49

    Rail Dawg

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    Pat G. is right Bob this is the best venue for this rocket.

    Your hospitality is appreciated!

    Just knowing there are pads in place for launch is one item on the checklist that is complete.

    Plus I know there will be plenty of help. This will be needed.

    I’m excited!

    Thanks.

    Chuck C.
     
  20. Dec 1, 2018 #50

    Rail Dawg

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    Can you guys steer me to some links on builds of this size?

    Work is going to have to start soon.

    Biggest concern up front are the fins, the transfer of power to the airframe and overall stability.

    It’s going to be 30” sonotube. Thinking 20’ length or so.

    Keep the ideas coming.

    Chuck C.
     
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  21. Dec 1, 2018 #51

    llickteig1

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    Chuck,

    There are a number of design elements of rockets of this magnitude that don't scale well from "normal" high power rockets. I'm no expert, but the KloudBuster Max we launched in 2015 has a similar scope, size and ambition. The design and build of this project was very fluid as we figured out what we could do and couldn't accomplish and as the weight started to become extreme. The discussion above brings some of them to light.
    • Finding another big project you can emulate will be difficult. Every huge rocket is one-off based upon the budget, the commitment by the champion of the project, the time available for the team, the skills of the team members, launch window, motor(s) available, etc. Many are single builder and take years to build and perfect. Think Vern Hoag and Steve Eves.
    • The notion of couplers and shoulders on nose cones pretty much goes away. How do you reliably push a 30" diameter nosecone with a 20" - 40" shoulder out of the tube? It isn't easy without blowing out the side of the airframe. When I took over the KBMax project design/build team, the nosecone had a 20" shoulder and there was a lot of discussion regarding getting it off the rocket. We learned from the Nebraska team's designs instead to use mating bulkplates and explosive bolts. We deployed two parachutes with a total of about 6g of black powder.
    • Bringing the rocket down in intact (flyable) condition is very difficult. The sheer size and weight of the components damage themselves. Bring the thing down in as many pieces as you need to in order to be safe, but remember, every joint is a complication and a failure point. My recovery thoughts were consumed by the safety of each piece coming down and safety if something(s) didn't go nominally (broken airframe structure or motor CATO). I always considered the rocket to be single use and just wanted to get the motor cases to the ground safely. Interestingly, we didn't significantly break anything (some cracks in the nosecone on landing) and could have jammed reloaded motors in the thing and tried again.
    • You're doing right thinking about the load/weight bearing parts of the structure first. Design the internals to deal with the thrust of the motor and weight of the components. In a huge way, a body tube is mostly aesthetic.
    • Your concern of transferring the thrust to the rocket is well founded, but when you think of airframe think of the internal structure unit that comprises the fins, bulkplates, nosecone weight and attachment, etc. all of which you have to get moving upward. We integrated the fins and motor mount assembly and attached the structure to the airframe the entire length of each fin root along with internal stringers going all the way from the motor mount structure to the nosecone. Think lots and lots of surface area for attach points. Construction adhesive and long screws work much better on wood parts than epoxy, is cheaper, and is easier to work with.
    • If you make the thing big enough and heavy enough you can use plywood for the fins. They will be heavy, but at speeds of 500-600 mph they won't be compromised during flight. Landing maybe, but not flight. I mentioned above, we used surplus 1" honeycomb core skinned with fiberglass and edged with moulding from the lumberyard.. Ours were pretty light but extremely rigid.
    • You're not only going to need a team to build the rocket, but consider transport and prep at the field. We had a team of about 8-10 people who helped during the last build cycle and about that many at the field helping with final assembly/prep and raising the thing to vertical. One project lead is important, I think. You can have sub-teams for fin structure, airframe structure, recovery, electronics, propulsion, etc. but you need a leader who helps talk through disagreement and who can spend money. Oh, the money. This sort of effort costs a lot. The leader must control the purse as well.
    • There are a ton of other things to consider. A ton. Get a team together and start some serious design work. What skills do you have available? What materials? What tools/workspace? etc. It took from 2000 to 2015 for the KLOUDBuster Max to go from glassing the first piece of Sonotube to launch.
    I'll probably post more later.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2018
  22. Dec 1, 2018 #52

    llickteig1

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    Here is a photo.
     

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  23. Dec 1, 2018 #53

    Rail Dawg

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    Excellent post!

    Brings up lots of discussion.

    Will do soon!

    Thanks.

    Chuck C
     
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  24. Dec 2, 2018 #54

    Oldschool77

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    Oh yah another reason to go to Argonia next year. I wanna see this succeed. I wanted to see Troj's Pershing succeed too. However Troj redeemed himself with his Redstone launch, which I unfortunately missed.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2018
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  25. Dec 3, 2018 #55

    Rail Dawg

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    OK Lance great post I’ve had a chance to mull over your guidance.

    The following is just shooting from the hip and is a call to everyone for input:

    I’d like to hear about the ejection idea using explosive bolts. Also gave consideration to an airbag or two just to get the nosecone off. Have the drogue be a large chute to pull an even larger cargo chute out. Surplus cargo chutes up to 100’ are available.

    I’m going to go to a custom wood crafter to have him build the bottom plate where the motor thrust ring will push. It will be beefy.

    He can also craft a forward thrust plate so the motor can push against that. Both forward and aft thrust plates will be glued and bolted in.

    He can also build the fins out of wood. You mentioned plywood. Should they be glassed? What if I went with something like oak? Expensive but strong. Could be beveled as needed.

    Fins attached to the airframe with zinc mounting plates that are bolted through the airframe to 2x4’s that are perhaps shaped to the circumference of the airframe.

    Are internal stringers necessary? Could I really lay on the fiberglass or even carbon to the sonotube for external strength?

    I’ve got a good budget and a patient wife.

    Am going to need LOTS of help at the launch site. I know there are many good people out there who will be willing to help.

    I’ve got a 30x50 rocket shed.

    I’m not an expert with RockSim or Open Rocket. Would like someone to plug a 30” and 20-30 ft rocket in with a heavy tail in for me.

    Tell me the best fin design. What size should they be?

    Please Lance you and everyone else tear into these rough plans and tell me the strengths and weaknesses.

    My job is such that I’m gone for 3 days but then have 3 full days to work on this. I’m pretty dedicated when faced with a challenge. This can be ready for LDRS 2019.

    Thanks!

    Chuck C.
     
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  26. Dec 3, 2018 #56

    rharshberger

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    Use Baltic Birch instead of Oak plywood if you go the ply route, BB is solid birch plys, most Oak ply are oak skinned with lesser wood cores (usually Poplar). I would still glass the fins if for no other reason that increasing impact damage resistance. BB also has better quality control, many of the oak plys commonly available are imports and are full of voids and delaminations, BB is not, it may have a few face patches depending on grade. Even better than BB is birch aircraft ply.
     
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  27. Dec 3, 2018 #57

    Rail Dawg

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    Noted!

    I like the birch aircraft ply idea!

    Will glass.

    Thanks Rich.

    Chuck C.
     
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  28. Dec 3, 2018 #58

    rharshberger

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    I have never built anything the size of what you are, but I am just trying to give some insights that may or may not be feaseable, others may have better input. Woodworking is one of my other hobbies so I have some knowledge of the common materials used in it. Looking forward to following this build Chuck.
     
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  29. Dec 3, 2018 #59

    Rail Dawg

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    Wood is going to play an important role in this.

    I haven’t the talent or the tools to do it right so will be using professional help. Respect for your woodworking ability!

    Thanks again Rich.

    Chuck C.
     
  30. Dec 3, 2018 #60

    OverTheTop

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    I have used an isogrid structure (G10) with CF skins for some fins. Worked out to be quite light and rigid. You would need to have access to a CNC router or be very patient if you don't ;).
    https://forum.ausrocketry.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5019&start=42
    ReadyForSecondSide.JPG
    Feel free to borrow the idea if it suits.

    Looking forward to seeing your project build, whichever way you build it :cool:.
     
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