An interesting Cheap and Dirty staging design

AfterBurners

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Many years ago I was playing around with CHAD staffing and came up with the following design. The rocket a ESTES Patriot was redesigned to accept 3 motors internally without a separate booster section. You would tape the 3 motors together and slide them into the rocket motor mount. which was located mid way inside the airframe. As the boosters burned and ignited one another the tape would burn and the motor would drop down and out of the rocket. I also did this same design with a CC Express, but I also had a separate stage "E" booster that helped push the rocket off the pad. The CC Express used 18mm motors, but the concept was the same.

It has always been a challenge to get it to boost straight, the obvious problem is as the motors burn and drop out the CG changes and the rocket wants to nose over while high in the air. I'm revisiting this design, but use a BT-80 as the main airframe and do a two stage rocket, but as a 3 engine cluster.

So what do you guys think? I crazy? You don't have to answer that:lol:

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RocketFeller

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Doesn't that cause a Krushnic effect? Maybe I'm not understanding how it works...
 

hornet driver

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Hey Dan, looks cool. I like the way you vented it ,very creative. I gotta tell ya, I've never had a multistage rocket--no matter what type it is--track straight up . They always kick over at least a little when staging and the more you stage the more the problem. I'm personally convinced that it's caused by the sudden KICK when the upper stage lights off. I've gotten away from staging for the most part since my stuff always ends up in the next county over.---H
 

AfterBurners

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Hey Dan, looks cool. I like the way you vented it ,very creative. I gotta tell ya, I've never had a multistage rocket--no matter what type it is--track straight up . They always kick over at least a little when staging and the more you stage the more the problem. I'm personally convinced that it's caused by the sudden KICK when the upper stage lights off. I've gotten away from staging for the most part since my stuff always ends up in the next county over.---H

Glad you like the design. Something I did several years back, Just came across some old pictures. Really a kick to see it flight especially the CC Express as the booster falls. Not sure which design I will be doing?
 

Cabernut

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Wouldn't the CG shift forward, making it more stable, not less?
 

Lowpuller

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I didn't think you could drop a motor without some type of recovery?
 

hcmbanjo

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I gotta tell ya, I've never had a multistage rocket--no matter what type it is--track straight up . They always kick over at least a little when staging and the more you stage the more the problem. I'm personally convinced that it's caused by the sudden KICK when the upper stage lights off. I've gotten away from staging for the most part since my stuff always ends up in the next county over.---H

I've had the same results with two-stagers.
Boost is fine but when the upper engine kicks in it'll veer off at an angle. I don't think it had anything to do with the wind.
That one inch (or less) of a coupler to guide the upper stage doesn't seem to help much.
I avoid flying staged models.
I do like clusters, though.
 

JumpJet

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That one inch (or less) of a coupler to guide the upper stage doesn't seem to help much.

We've flown well over a thousand two stage models here at Estes over the past few years and I've found by having the booster fit super loose into the upper stage is the key to the upper stage not veering off course at stage separation. In fact the booster on our E2X lines of models will fall off if let go: They are that loose.


John Boren
 

GlenP

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Sounds like a really cool variation of the Augie, (Augie II and Lil' Augie plans linked below, where is the Augie I plan?) but the tube fin here is the same diameter as the upper body tube. You probably should check balance and stability for all of the boost and sustainer configurations.

https://www.spacemodeling.org/jimz/eirp_28.htm
https://www.spacemodeling.org/jimz/eirp_10.htm

PS - I made a cardstock mini-Augie with a mini-motor mount so that I can wrap a little streamer around the booster engine.
https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?134708-mini-AUGIE
 
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lakeroadster

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Many years ago I was playing around with CHAD staffing and came up with the following design. The rocket a ESTES Patriot was redesigned to accept 3 motors internally without a separate booster section. You would tape the 3 motors together and slide them into the rocket motor mount. which was located mid way inside the airframe. As the boosters burned and ignited one another the tape would burn and the motor would drop down and out of the rocket. I also did this same design with a CC Express, but I also had a separate stage "E" booster that helped push the rocket off the pad. The CC Express used 18mm motors, but the concept was the same.

It has always been a challenge to get it to boost straight, the obvious problem is as the motors burn and drop out the CG changes and the rocket wants to nose over while high in the air. I'm revisiting this design, but use a BT-80 as the main airframe and do a two stage rocket, but as a 3 engine cluster.

So what do you guys think? I crazy? You don't have to answer that:lol:

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This design is "Krushn It". Love the look, well done!
 

BDB

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I always wanted to try something like this when I was a teenager. I called the idea “stage within a stage.” Back then, I didn’t know about venting, so it likely would have failed. Now I definitely want to do it.
 

AfterBurners

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I always wanted to try something like this when I was a teenager. I called the idea “stage within a stage.” Back then, I didn’t know about venting, so it likely would have failed. Now I definitely want to do it.
I made a RS file on it I think? I can look for it of you want me too? I have to dig through some drives I had to store it someplace?
 

BABAR

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Tumble recovery. How is this any different than a booster stage falling?
Late to another party.

nothing in NAR Rules precludes motor ejection for SPORT flying, it is generally not allowed in COMPETITION.

Absolutely agree that a used motor casing is gonna tumble and likely fall with same velocity and certainly less mass than a booster. Some consider falling motors and increased fire risk, and group them with Sparky motors, restricted when fire risk is high. Some field owners also restrict them, I think like sod farms, where there is concern (reasonable) that someone may not police their casings (can be hard to find) and they could potentially mess up mowers.

and some RSOs I have heard get a burr under the saddle with them. But they are not a NAR safety code violation, and it would be really hard to hurt someone or something with a falling D casing. Der MicroMeister said in one post they used to eject G motors at NAR events, I have no other source confirming that and John has slipped this mortal coil and is hanging out in Heaven with Gary Byrum. (you know those rockets you launch and they never come down, never get seen again? It’s THEM!)
 

AfterBurners

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Late to another party.

nothing in NAR Rules precludes motor ejection for SPORT flying, it is generally not allowed in COMPETITION.

Absolutely agree that a used motor casing is gonna tumble and likely fall with same velocity and certainly less mass than a booster. Some consider falling motors and increased fire risk, and group them with Sparky motors, restricted when fire risk is high. Some field owners also restrict them, I think like sod farms, where there is concern (reasonable) that someone may not police their casings (can be hard to find) and they could potentially mess up mowers.

and some RSOs I have heard get a burr under the saddle with them. But they are not a NAR safety code violation, and it would be really hard to hurt someone or something with a falling D casing. Der MicroMeister said in one post they used to eject G motors at NAR events, I have no other source confirming that and John has slipped this mortal coil and is hanging out in Heaven with Gary Byrum. (you know those rockets you launch and they never come down, never get seen again? It’s THEM!)
probably best suited to launch over a dry lake bed which is where I tested the rocket.
 
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