An Estes E12 ate my, Baby!!

[rbeard2]

Hi everybody! I realize now that the only time I contribute to the conversation on this forum is when I'm bitching about something so I''m sorry and here goes;

At the recent OAMC Buckeye Blast (NAR/Tripoli) in South Charleston, a fantastic time was had by all. Many successful launches and even some late-afternoon excitement/shenanigans on Saturday were "highlights" of the event. Good friends and good times as it should be.

But one of the "low-lights" for me and several others were the exploding Estes E12 engines that plagued us.

OK, plague is a hard word. During the time of the Black Death, the population of Europe was depleted by about 30%. Of the 9 E12 engines I had successfully ignite on Saturday only 2 of them CATO'd returning a slightly lower fatality percentage of 28.2% . . . maybe plague is the right word.

Additionally, there were at least 3 other E12 CATO's with the corresponding rocket destruction out of maybe 6 or 7 other attempts.

AND, lest ye think I jest = here's the photo montage of my custom built, 6 inch diameter, 8 24mm cluster Saturn1 Block 2/ Gemini lunar orbiter (what-if) model THAT I DESIGNED AND BUILT SPECIFICALLY WITH THE MUCH ANTICIPATED ESTES E12 IN MIND!!! AHHHHHHHH!!!





Spider ignition worked great, all 8 motors ignited and for a split second the rocket leaped off the pad headed skyward and then - BOOOM! One of the central 4 E12-4s exploded. It blew off the top of the rocket and the now un-stable booster sped downrange and "core-sampled" the farm field. The other 3 central E12-4s and 4 outboard E12-6s burned fine and dandy. sigh.

Later another veteran tube fin rocket of mine - also scratch built - was literally torn apart on the pad by yet another E12-4 (from a different pack!).

Soooooo . . . BEWARE!! I know there was some previous rumbling about a "bad batch" of E12s coming out from Estes - It's TRUE. But I have 6 more un-opened packs of these in the box and I'm scared to use them!

BTW, the folks at Estes have always been superb about handling product issues but I think an exchange program or (dare I suggest) a Recall if the "batch numbers" can be identified might be in order? I'm sure we will here from them soon on this and thanks guys in advance for addressing this issue.

 

[rstaff3]

Oh man, that stinks. Hope the rocket is fixable. I was lucky enough to have my rocket survive its E12 CATO with no damage. Make sure you fill out a MESS form. It took several attempts to get Estes' attention but when they finally responded they sent me replacements quickly. Since they sent me three engines for the one that CATOed, I guess I owe them two. :shock:

 

[Rocket86]

So sorry that happened. It's bad enough with any rocket, but one with that much effort in it hurts even more. I hope you can salvage it.

 

[Fishhead]

My good time was muted by a bad choice of boots. Grabbed my steel toes with thin socks and I'm paying for it with blisters right now. In fact, when the afternoon shenanigans occurred, I was standing by the LCO table taking pictures in my socks. I fought the ensuing fire in my socks. I drove all the way home and even stopped for a PowerAde in my socks. Next time I pick my boots more carefully.:wink:
Just wanted to chime in with my pictures of your event. I've had a problem with letting up on the button when something booms, and I'm trying to break myself of the habit. In the case of your CATO, it worked to my advantage as I was able to follow the booster on its fatal flight path. It sure didn't look unstable to me.

Just an all around bummer. This was a very cool bird and I stopped RSOing a rocket just to catch the launch shots. No way I wanted to miss this.

 

[rbeard2]

PHOTO CREDS TO FISHHEAD BTW!! HE SENT ME A LINK TO HIS PHOTOBUCKET AND I CLIPPED MY PHOTOS FROM THEM!
CREDIT WHERE CREDIT IS DUE!

. . . he he . . . . shenanigans! . . . LMAO!

Also, sent an email direct to Estes. Will report back.

 

[pick1e]

Wow, that really sucks, especially when you've put that much time and effort into something. I'm sure Estes will take care of you. The rocket in the photos looks awesome. That's an unpleasant and unacceptable ratio of failures.

 

[UPscaler]

PHOTO CREDS TO FISHHEAD BTW!! HE SENT ME A LINK TO HIS PHOTOBUCKET AND I CLIPPED MY PHOTOS FROM THEM!
CREDIT WHERE CREDIT IS DUE!

. . . he he . . . . shenanigans! . . . LMAO!

Also, sent an email direct to Estes. Will report back.

I've found they're not so quick on replies to email. I'd recommend calling!


sorry for you loss. That's a mighty gorgeous rocket there!


Braden

 

[Marc_G]

Dude! HArsh, but awesome photos Fishhead!

+1 to the comments about reporting the failures. Sorry for your loss. Hopefully repairable.

 

[RocketT.Coyote]

Demo'd the Estes E12s at NARAM. E12-4 In Estes Interceptor E and E12-6 in a Dynastar Snarky both performed well. Wanted to try an E12 in a Dynastar Firefox, but the mount only take D12-sized motors.

 

[billspad]

Make sure you fill out a MESS form.

Here's the link:


https://www.nar.org/NARmessform.html

 

[Zeus-cat]

You might want to increase your shutter speed if you can Fishhead. 1/400th is a bit slow for rockets. Try shooting at 1/1000 of a second for low and mid power rockets. That would help with the rockets not being blurry in the liftoff photos. You will probably need to compensate by increasing your ISO. On the high power stuff pop it up to 1/2000th of a second.

 

[Fishhead]

You might want to increase your shutter speed if you can Fishhead. 1/400th is a bit slow for rockets. Try shooting at 1/1000 of a second for low and mid power rockets. That would help with the rockets not being blurry in the liftoff photos. You will probably need to compensate by increasing your ISO. On the high power stuff pop it up to 1/2000th of a second.

Thanks for the tips. This stuff has always been on par with voodoo to me. I'm on vacation after tonight, so I'll give this a look tomorrow. My camera is kind of a low-end SLR, but I think it has the capability to manually adjust the shutter speed. It'd be nice if the weather would cooperate and let me launch a few at B6-4 Field just to give it a REAL test.

 

[loopy]

Fishhead - you seem to fight alot of fires at launches...

 

[azgreg]

Silver lining time: You get to build another one or have the fun of repairing this one. It's all good.

 

[Pem Tech]

Silver lining time: You get to build another one or have the fun of repairing this one. It's all good.

I second that emotion....

 

[Pem Tech]

very nice rocket, per blast that is...
Do you have any more detailed pics? I did a Gemini what-if sometime back but it wasn't a 6" diameter!!

Hi everybody! I realize now that the only time I contribute to the conversation on this forum is when I'm bitching about something so I''m sorry and here goes;

At the recent OAMC Buckeye Blast (NAR/Tripoli) in South Charleston, a fantastic time was had by all. Many successful launches and even some late-afternoon excitement/shenanigans on Saturday were "highlights" of the event. Good friends and good times as it should be.

But one of the "low-lights" for me and several others were the exploding Estes E12 engines that plagued us.

OK, plague is a hard word. During the time of the Black Death, the population of Europe was depleted by about 30%. Of the 9 E12 engines I had successfully ignite on Saturday only 2 of them CATO'd returning a slightly lower fatality percentage of 28.2% . . . maybe plague is the right word.

Additionally, there were at least 3 other E12 CATO's with the corresponding rocket destruction out of maybe 6 or 7 other attempts.

AND, lest ye think I jest = here's the photo montage of my custom built, 6 inch diameter, 8 24mm cluster Saturn1 Block 2/ Gemini lunar orbiter (what-if) model THAT I DESIGNED AND BUILT SPECIFICALLY WITH THE MUCH ANTICIPATED ESTES E12 IN MIND!!! AHHHHHHHH!!!

View attachment 104154
View attachment 104155
View attachment 104156

Spider ignition worked great, all 8 motors ignited and for a split second the rocket leaped off the pad headed skyward and then - BOOOM! One of the central 4 E12-4s exploded. It blew off the top of the rocket and the now un-stable booster sped downrange and "core-sampled" the farm field. The other 3 central E12-4s and 4 outboard E12-6s burned fine and dandy. sigh.

Later another veteran tube fin rocket of mine - also scratch built - was literally torn apart on the pad by yet another E12-4 (from a different pack!).

Soooooo . . . BEWARE!! I know there was some previous rumbling about a "bad batch" of E12s coming out from Estes - It's TRUE. But I have 6 more un-opened packs of these in the box and I'm scared to use them!

BTW, the folks at Estes have always been superb about handling product issues but I think an exchange program or (dare I suggest) a Recall if the "batch numbers" can be identified might be in order? I'm sure we will here from them soon on this and thanks guys in advance for addressing this issue.

 

[gdjsky01]

Thanks for the tips. This stuff has always been on par with voodoo to me. I'm on vacation after tonight, so I'll give this a look tomorrow. My camera is kind of a low-end SLR, but I think it has the capability to manually adjust the shutter speed. It'd be nice if the weather would cooperate and let me launch a few at B6-4 Field just to give it a REAL test.

Look for shutter priority mode. You get to adjust and lock in the shutter speed the camera will take care of the aperture. Everything else is still automatic. The only issue is sometimes, depending on the camera and the light available, the lens can only open so wide, and the camera can only compensate for that by adjusting e sensitivity higher. Usual, even under cloudy conditions it'll be fine. You may see the photos have a tad more color noise from the camera cranking up the gain (sensitivity or ISO).

 

[Fishhead]

Fishhead - you seem to fight alot of fires at launches...

:blush:Yeah, but only 33% have been of my own making, and I had that one out before the fire truck got there.:wink:
So, when are you coming up to plant a new crop of pizza?

 

[loopy]

Hopefully the mid-december launch. That's the weekend before my birthday, so I should get to do what I want, right?

 

[Fishhead]

Hopefully the mid-december launch. That's the weekend before my birthday, so I should get to do what I want, right?

Sure! Keep telling yourself that.:wink: That's my next target launch, too. I only managed four flights on Saturday due to circumstances beyond my control.

 

[rbeard2]

very nice rocket, per blast that is...
Do you have any more detailed pics? I did a Gemini what-if sometime back but it wasn't a 6" diameter!!

I have a bunch of pics and when the shock wears off, (sobs softly:no, I will post a short construction article.

BTW, initial analysis of the wreckage indicates that we have the technology to build it better than it was before. . .

. . . better . . .

. . . . . . . stronger . . . .

. . . . . . . . . . . . faster . . . . . .

":lolAAAA DAAAA DA DAAAAAAA
:lol:LAA LAA LAAAAA LA
:lolAA DA DEEDLE DAAAAHHHH!!!

:grin:

 

[Zeus-cat]

Look for shutter priority mode. You get to adjust and lock in the shutter speed the camera will take care of the aperture. Everything else is still automatic. The only issue is sometimes, depending on the camera and the light available, the lens can only open so wide, and the camera can only compensate for that by adjusting e sensitivity higher. Usual, even under cloudy conditions it'll be fine. You may see the photos have a tad more color noise from the camera cranking up the gain (sensitivity or ISO).

It's a personal choice thing, but I would rather see the colors off or even a little pixelization than a blurry rocket.

The other thing that you can do if your camera allows it is to underexpose the photo a bit. Most SLRs overexpose on full automatic; especially on a sunny day. My wife and I have our camera preset to a 1/3 f stop underexposure. We crank that down to 2/3 or even a full stop without hesitation if we think we need it. On very rare occassions I have gone to 2 stops underexposed. I almost never need to overexpose. If the photo is a little dark you can always lighten it after the fact.

 

[gdjsky01]

There are a few photo tip threads in the gallery area.
jeff

 

[dpower]

What were the date codes?

 

[boomtube]

So far I haven’t attempted any E12 launches, mostly because of the cost, but now I have another good reason to avoid them.

What Estes really needs to produce is an 18mm C10-0 booster motor to get those somewhat heavy two stage rockets off the rail with enough velocity to be stable.

Didn’t there used to be a B14-0?

As for your choice in footwear.

The distance you must walk to recover your rocket is inversely proportional to the comfort of your shoes and directly proportional to the ruggedness of the terrain. This can be shown mathematically as:

(Rt-Sc)/(Rt+Sc)^2 = Oh crap!!

 

[NikeRam]

There was a B14-0 and it was the best for drop staging.

 

[RWmarlow]

B14 Images from somewhere on here

 

[Fishhead]

So far I haven’t attempted any E12 launches, mostly because of the cost, but now I have another good reason to avoid them.

What Estes really needs to produce is an 18mm C10-0 booster motor to get those somewhat heavy two stage rockets off the rail with enough velocity to be stable.

Didn’t there used to be a B14-0?

As for your choice in footwear.

The distance you must walk to recover your rocket is inversely proportional to the comfort of your shoes and directly proportional to the ruggedness of the terrain. This can be shown mathematically as:

(Rt-Sc)/(Rt+Sc)^2 = Oh crap!!

Geez, no wonder my feet hurt. I'm lousy at math.:wink: