All-in-One 38mm (First HPR rocket)

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Admiting that I've only read half the thread.

Every rocket is purpose designed/built. One built for good flignts on G motors are likey to work alright on H motors, and vice versa, but maybe not optimally (altitude lower or higher than you'd like, heavily built for higher thrust and speed is overweight for lower, etc.). Likewise I and J motors. Rockets designed for good looks look good.

In addition to what others have said about learning more by building separate L1 and L2 birds, you'll also have the oportunity optimize each for its purpose. Making a single rocket that can go from G through J is a gloal in itself; a pretty cool one. Such a rocket would be optimized for that goal, and not optimized for performing cert flights. Part of optimizimg for a cert flight is KISS. The design of an all-in-one probably will never really be kept simple.
Yup, that’s what I’ve been figuring out.

To be perfectly honest, I didn’t really have a concept for what this kind of power really meant when I started this thread a few days ago. Playing around with the design and simulation has helped considerably.

I also am realizing that you’re probably right, I’m thinking that this airframe might be alright for Level 1 in “chopped” configuration but I’d want to be really confident in my build, flight, and recovery skills if I were to use it for Level 2. It would be a greater challenge than it needs to be, and a flyer who would like to get into that power range simply and reliably would definitely want to look at something more bare-bones.

The various configurations that I’ve come up with appear to give it a great deal of versatility in terms of dealing with different power ranges, but they come at a price of increased complexity, cost, and parts count. The project is not so much a singular rocket as much as it is a modular rocket family.

Now, the modular rocket family concept is fine, I intend to explore the possibilities with it, and build/fly it if I don’t brand it as impractical, but I’m definitely going to have to accept that there will be better designs for either of the two certs. L2 would certainly have better chances of success on a purpose-built airframe.

We’ve all seen how tricky it can be to recover 18mm rockets on one of those compact D motors. Loading up one of those for a first foray into D power instead of going for something heavier that runs on on 24mm D power would certainly be a risk. I imagine it’s much the same here.
 
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I would suggest to put down on a piece of paper the objectives that the rocket has to accomplish. Around these you will tailor the design. Otherwise, you may end up in adding feature over features and this will make things more complex and prone to fail.
 
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I would suggest to put down on a piece of paper the objectives that the rocket has to accomplish. Around these you will tailor the design. Otherwise, you may end up in adding feature over features and this will make things more complex and prone to fail.
I’m pretty happy with the current designs I have (go to the last page and scroll up). I don’t see a lot of other requirements being added at this time.

Just a few objectives I’ve met with this thing:
  • Suitable for MPR test flights with DART. Not only do they have weight and total impulse class limits (a single G, not enough space for two Gs or an H) but they also have a 1,000 ft ceiling at their site. The shortened design sims well enough to fly there on an Aerotech G67R or similar.
  • Suitable for L1 certification. The shortened one is motor ejection and attains a comparatively low altitude on a small H motor.
  • Flies safely on a wide variety of 38mm motors.
  • Is long enough to accommodate an extremely long motor like the Contrail J222 hybrid, which the lengthened version does. Obviously there are still questions about dynamic stability but I’m hoping that I can get some answers on that through simulations or actual flights on much smaller motors
L2 certification is probably out of the practical reach of this concept but could still technically be doable with a high waiver, good recovery area, and the use of tracking/recovery aids. As @jqavins pointed out, a simpler purpose-built rocket in a larger diameter would be more advisable for that purpose.
 
Not to be TOO critical, but I don't get a lot of the advice being given in this thread. I'm not the most experienced guy here, by a MOONSHOT, but here's my 2 cts
  • How on earth did scratch building get worked into this discussion? Doesn't sound to me like he (or I 😄 ) is at the point where cutting fin slots in a thick BT is in the picture. Did I actually read something about turning a nosecone on a lathe? But some of that talk might be directed at AstroAbacus, though, who DID ask about scratchbuilding...
  • Not sure a 6 fin Darkstar is the best choice, or even glass (can't believe I said that, I always hype glass & love the darkstar!!). I think he needs lightweight to be able to allow for such a wide range of motors & not having to use really high-thrust propellant on the low side.
  • no need for booster/sustainer/av bay setups; use motor eject with a JollyLogic Chute Tamer...you can fly almost anything anywhere without 1/10th the hassle of setting up & using pyro-based DD.
  • Not the best idea to go for huge altitudes on any cert flight, particularly if doing L1 & L2 on the same day (which I did too, but with different rockets), I suggest a shorter, FAT rocket, not slender; 4-6"...the OP's wish-list/criteria is why God invented the 5.5" MinieMagg!
  • Tons of kits fit this bill, but I find a lot of basic kits, i.e. LOC IV, kind of boring...but to each his own. I think the Aerotech* Mega-Initiator would be a great choice too. Maybe a bit overpriced, but it also comes with motor adapters that let you use 29/38 AND 54 mm stuff (*co-developed w/LOC) Goblins, der Red Max, Sonic Blast...and don't let me forget PML & Quantum tubes. TONS of cool options out there with at least a LITTLE flair to choose from!
HP isn't inherently more difficult than low/mid stuff, but it's less forgiving of small mistakes. Keep it simple, build strong, and ASK FOR ADVICE, particularly at the with motors; assembling reloads and/or really making sure the ejection charge is set up as perfectly as possible.
 
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Not to be TOO critical, but I don't get a lot of the advice being given in this thread. I'm not the most experienced guy here, by a MOONSHOT, but here's my 2 cts
  • How on earth did scratch building get worked into this discussion? Doesn't sound to me like he (or I 😄 ) is at the point where cutting fin slots in a thick BT is in the picture. Did I actually read something about turning a nosecone on a lathe? But some of that talk might be directed at AstroAbacus, though, who DID ask about scratchbuilding...
  • Not sure a 6 fin Darkstar is the best choice, or even glass (can't believe I said that, I always hype glass & love the darkstar!!). I think he needs lightweight to be able to allow for such a wide range of motors & not having to use really high-thrust propellant on the low side.
  • no need for booster/sustainer/av bay setups; use motor eject with a JollyLogic Chute Tamer...you can fly almost anything anywhere without 1/10th the hassle of setting up & using pyro-based DD.
  • I suggest a shorter, FAT rocket, not slender; 4-6"...the OP's wish-list/criteria is why God invented the 5.5" MinieMagg!
  • Tons of kits fit this bill, but I find a lot of basic kits, i.e. LOC IV, kind of boring...but to each his own. I think the Aerotech* Mega-Initiator would be a great choice too. Maybe a bit overpriced, but it also comes with motor adapters that let you use 29/38 AND 54 mm stuff (*co-developed w/LOC) Goblins, der Red Max, Sonic Blast...TONS of cool stuff with at least a LITTLE flair to choose from!
HP isn't inherently more difficult than low/mid stuff, but it's less forgiving of small mistakes. Keep it simple, build strong, and ASK FOR ADVICE, particularly at the with motors; assembling reloads and/or really making sure the ejection charge is set up as perfectly as possible.
You know….I have been going down a bit of a rabbit hole with the DarkStar and maybe I need to consider a few other options. I’ll look at the MinieMagg and see how compares in performance. Weight will be king in the MPR range but I’ll still need some structural strength for L2
 

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there are lots of words in this thread, many mine, can't review them all. but did you say why you're so locked in on the 38mm diameter, Shane? I like the idea & get the challenge of spanning F/G (pre-cert mid-power test flight) to J/K power-ranges on one rocket. But I'm curious why it matters to you whether you fly a 3 grain 38 vs. a 5 grain 29 or 1-2 grain 54? When you mix & match the propellants right, you can get nearly identical flight profiles with all 3 of those options.

Even if you want unity for the sake of unity on your cert flights, this is an important rocket in your 'journey'; hopefully you'll get dozens of flights beyond cert-day. Maybe you'll find a guy selling a spare single-use motor for cheap at an event...or giving it away cuz he forgot what propellant he put in his casing last year (I've seen it happen!)...or you borrow or buy a 54 hardware a year or two down the road...you see a great deal in TRF Yard sale, etc. why limit your options?

That AT. Mega Initiator is literally designed for and out-of-the-box equipped to handle 29, 38 and 54 motors...spanning F-K, Tim @ Wildman had them at a pretty deep discount within the last year for 'club members'...reach out and see what he can do for you, you don't know unless you ask!

Thinking ahead, you want to know what's a fun challenge? Put an obscenely oversized motor in a well-built rocket & see if you can keep the landing within tracking-range; that's also what Wildman lives for, btw
 
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there are lots of words in this thread, many mine, can't review them all. but did you say why you're so locked in on the 38mm diameter, Shane? I like the idea & get the challenge of spanning F/G (pre-cert mid-power test flight) to J/K power-ranges on one rocket. But I'm curious why it matters to you whether you fly a 3 grain 38 vs. a 5 grain 29 or 1-2 grain 54? When you mix & match the propellants right, you can get nearly identical flight profiles with all 3 of those options.

Even if you want unity for the sake of unity on your cert flights, this is an important rocket in your 'journey'; hopefully you'll get dozens of flights beyond cert-day. Maybe you'll find a guy selling a spare single-use motor for cheap at an event...or giving it away cuz he forgot what propellant he put in his casing last year (I've seen it happen!)...or you borrow or buy a 54 hardware a year or two down the road...you see a great deal in TRF Yard sale, etc. why limit your options?

That AT. Mega Initiator is literally designed for and out-of-the-box equipped to handle 29, 38 and 54 motors...spanning F-K, Tim @ Wildman had them at a pretty deep discount within the last year for 'club members'...reach out and see what he can do for you, you don't know unless you ask!

Thinking ahead, you want to know what's a fun challenge? Put an obscenely oversized motor in a well-built rocket & see if you can keep the landing within tracking-range; that's also what Wildman lives for, btw
My selection of the 38mm motor size and 1,500 gram liftoff weight was an outgrowth of my desire to test-fly the rocket prior to a Level 1 certification attempt. An adapter from 54mm would add weight.

I also ended up imposing a 1,000ft ceiling on the design when loaded up with a non-HPR G motor, as this is the ceiling of the closest flying field to me. DART has the "Level 0.9" program to build such a rocket, in which experienced club members can assist prospective newcomers to HPR (like myself) select their kit and motor, test-fly under MPR rules at a DART event, and then make a certification attempt at a waivered HPR launch elsewhere. They work with TRASD for this purpose; a few DART members take the trek out to fly with TRASD every now and then.

My desire for versatility beyond G/H/I flights and into the L2 regime spawned from my current display and storage arrangement. I have a row of spikes set up for rockets of different sizes, 13mm thru 29mm. I thought it would be pretty neat to create something that could sit on a 38mm spike (a spent Aerotech H283ST single-use casing, for example) and fly on pretty much anything in that size. Right now the various configurations of the DarkStar Jr. look very much the ticket.

Although....I wouldn't be opposed to doing a Level 2 certification on a different rocket with a 54mm mount, set up one of those while I'm still exploring the ins and outs of flying 38mm. A wider body tube and more substantial weight would certainly make a Level 2 certification flight more recoverable. I could even do a test-flight on an I. Hmmmm....🤔

I may end up dropping my desire to certify for L2 on the 38mm bird. I'd have to think about it.

Either way, all of this stuff is a long way off. No doubt further experience on the field in the coming months and years will be invaluable for taking a crack at L1. I'll keep my ideas for the DarkStar Jr. tucked away. I mainly wanted to use this thread to see if there was something ready-made that would prove adapable.

Regarding the 29mm motors, I have some limited experience flying motors in this size and I have a rocket ready to go: An Estes Star Orbiter. I realize the construction may be a bit dainty for going past the G range but I've fully accepted the possibility that I'll probably have to replace it at some point down the line. Still, I've used it for two flights on reloadable motors, and I anticipate that it'll be nice for learning a few more build and prep techniques that are common in the HPR realm. I plan to do a lot of flying with it. I just wish my Aerotech E16W reloads would show up. I ordered them in November and their supply chain difficulties are nasty right now. 15 weeks to ship to the dealer or something like that. *sigh*
 
That 1000' feet ceiling is awfully low.... surprising.
We get general aviation traffic ignoring the NOTAMs and overflying the launch site.

We’re also close to Lindbergh Field. Not under the approach and departure patterns, so the commercial air traffic doesn’t go overhead, but you can see them off in the distance and we establish contact with the tower as a courtesy.

I flew my Estes Goblin on a D12 there and the RSO advised me to put a little less motor in it for its next flight. Same with my Hi-Flier XL on an E12. Now the Goblin flies downrated to C11s and the Hi-Flier XL gets the D12s. If I were to bring the Star Orbiter out there, it would be restricted to E power instead of the F15s for which Estes designed it.

It’s not a great site if you want to go big and high, but if you need convenience to just have some fun, bring out a first-timer, or to test something small/medium-sized, it’s impossible for us to beat.

The guys that want to fly high-power join up with TRASD to get their fix. Some of the DART guys head out there too, to take advantage of the higher ceiling or check out the craziness of the Holtville Havoc event.
 
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My 2 cents. Make sure you have enough room for enough parachute.
I’ve been aware of this throughout the re-design process. Getting everything to fit can sometimes be a challenge but I don’t think there are too many excuses when dealing with a body tube over 2 inches wide.
 
That 1000' feet ceiling is awfully low.... surprising.
Even without the flight restrictions, flying above 1000 feet wouldn't be a good idea at that field. It's on an island in the bay, and if a rocket drifts too far, you'll have to go swimming for it.
 
Haven't read the whole thread but my .02...

- Definitely can be done. I flew a Zephyr in standard configuration on a G79W with no issues, flew it on H's after that as it really is designed as an intro to HP kit.
- Added the payload bay/DD conversation kit (with a few mods) and have flown it on J's no problem - just crests 3K feet on a 38/720 J. In fact, I think this rocket flies better extended and in DD configuration. From small I's to J's, always flies straight as an arrow. Heck, I think I have even flown it on an H268R in DD configuration with great results.
- Darkstar - any rocket with split fins gets my approval! I have more split-finned rockets than I can count! :) As clearly evidenced by my profile pic! The wildman kits will eat anything you can throw at it if you have the waiver. Just be mindful of the weight and rail exit speeds when flying it on MP/Gs.
 
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