Aerotech vs. Cesaroni

[ben_ullman]

I've never had any HPR load fail on me. I have however spent 2 weeks chipping the liner out of an AMW K555 after I flew it (and yes, I greased the liner).

Thats cause you DID grease the liner. No liners are greased here!! I have NEVER had an issue getting one out.

Ben

 

[Locum51]

Since your local dealer carries only AT motors, I'd start there. Then later on, you could pick up some CTI cases and loads.

Hypothetically speaking, let's say you have a set of CTI Pro 38 cases, and a good supply of I's, and, J's. You have no G or H motors, and your last motor order has yet to arrive. The rocket you plan to fly can handle G through J's easily (a PML Callisto for example). You show up to the launch, and, there's a good breeze blowing, enough to prevent safe recovery with an I or J flight. Since you have Pro 38 cases, and your on site vendor only carries AT loads, your rocket will be grounded. However, if you had AT cases, you could walk over to Joe Vendor, purchase a H, or G, and fly.

David

True, since Wildman is the closest vendor to me. This would be the best decision, i'm guessing...

 

[sylvie369]

True, since Wildman is the closest vendor to me. This would be the best decision, i'm guessing...

Tim has a good selection of both AT and Cesaroni in the 38mm sizes.

 

[Locum51]

Tim has a good selection of both AT and Cesaroni in the 38mm sizes.

That's good to know. I think the CTI cases are going to be a little more user friendly.

 

[sylvie369]

I personally generally fly Aerotech, but if I've still got a rocket to fly with a 38mm mount and the weather is good at the end of the day, it's nice to go over and pick up a Cesaroni, throw it together, and fly one more time. It'd take a little longer to do that with an AT motor.

Re. ease of use and user error: I've had exactly one failure of an AT reload, and it was the second one I ever put together, so it was probably user error. But they're just not that difficult to do right. I've flown maybe 150 of them, from 24mm to 54mm since then without a problem of any sort, and it's not because I'm some kind of super-genius motor builder. True, I rarely use motor ejection in HPR, so things like "bonus delay" don't matter to me. But the things generally do work well.

The Cesaroni "instant-on" is nice, but AT motors generally do light just fine.

 

[MaxQ]

I, myself, can't wait for Frank Kosdon to ramp up production now that regulatory problems have been resolved. His Fast Fuel is by far my favorite although I have the complete 29 and 38 mm sets of AT's. And being that AMW motors are derived from Frank's line there is the capability of using AMW loads in a Kosdon case.

My friends, we're entering a Golden Age of rocketry, everything is truly going up from here on:cyclops:

Yep. Me too.

Next:
Rocketflite "Silver Streaks".

 

[JDcluster]

Not quite;
Most of the flavors that AMW/ Kosdon East had were Pauls.
Dr Frank never did colors.
AMW nozzles & bulkheads are different than Kosdon.
Kosdon never did 3" or 76/75 mm either....

We'll just have to wait & see on that.



JD

I, myself, can't wait for Frank Kosdon to ramp up production now that regulatory problems have been resolved. His Fast Fuel is by far my favorite although I have the complete 29 and 38 mm sets of AT's. And being that AMW motors are derived from Frank's line there is the capability of using AMW loads in a Kosdon case.

My friends, we're entering a Golden Age of rocketry, everything is truly going up from here on:cyclops:

 

[Art Upton]

I've never had any HPR load fail on me. I have however spent 2 weeks chipping the liner out of an AMW K555 after I flew it (and yes, I greased the liner).

Loki tells you to not grease a paper liner. Grease is why the liners get stuck.

Fade to black rocket works can make you a motor liner removal tool. Or you can buy Square steel and cut an angle cut in one end. Use a mallet to slice the liner al the way down. Do on two or three side and the liner falls out.

 

[MarkII]

I'm with Troj on this one. Support the local vendor as much as possible....

No local vendors here, though. ASTRE's launches are way too small to be worth it for anyone to sell on-site (especially since our two fields can handle maximums of an F and a G, respectively). Would a vendor come out and set up to sell mostly low-power motors and the occasional mid-power motor at a launch that can expect a total attendance of 8-12 people (on a good day)? That's just the reality in my area. I have never been to a launch that had an on-site vendor, of motors or of anything else! The biggest launch that I have ever attended (3 years ago, in fact) had a total attendance of 12 people.

MarkII

 

[MarkII]

I'm stuck between AT (38mm) and CTI (38mm) as well. Which would be better for a person switching from MPR to HPR, like ease of use, cleaning, etc.

If you are new to reloadables as well, then getting a CTI Pro38 1-grain case and reload is a good way to get started with a minimal investment of equipment and training. Assembly is, as others have mentioned, a no-brainer. (This is what I did, BTW.) Personally, I think that both companies offer great lines of motors. My stock of AT reloads and RMS motors is much larger than my stock of CTI motors and reloads. For someone like me who flies low- and mid-power, and who is not Level 1 certified, Aerotech has much more to offer. Even with the addition of their new Pro29 line, CTI still only offers a total of three F reloads and two G reloads that one can buy without having HP certification. For the longest time, though, there was only one CTI reload that I could buy.

Little anecdote: CTI greatly helps with the quick ignition of their reloads by inserting a pyrodex pellet at the top of the propellant grains. I flew my first reload ever at the end of the day at a club launch, right before we took down the range. There was no one there but me and the LCO. I loaded my Cinco saucer with a Pro38 1-grain (G39 Classic), put it on the pad and stood back to take a picture of the launch. It was real quiet - all you could hear were the crickets, and the LCO giving the 5-second countdown. When he hit the launch button, I nearly dropped the camera! The sound of the pyrodex pellet igniting was like a pistol shot at very close range! :eyepop: The attached photo is the only picture that I got.

MarkII

 

[MarkII]

let me settle this

GO SNAP RING!! Then you can do EX later

Ben

There are plenty of us (the majority, in fact) who have no interest in ever mixing our own propellants and casting our own grains, though. You make it sound like getting into EX is something that is inevitable, but I can assure you that for the vast majority of us, it is not.

If someone wants to get into EX at some point down the road, then buying new cases for it will be the least of his or her expenses!

MarkII

 

[bobkrech]

MarkII

Anthony Cesaroni posted several times on TRF 1 that the starter pellet in Pro38 motors is BP, not Pyrodex(R).

Bob

 

[JoeG]

As I look through my motors I see a lot more Aerotech than CTI. A lot.

Availability is a major factor. Back in the old days (three months ago) I had to fly what the local vendors had since I have no LEUP.

Availability also has to do with longevity. I have been able to get Aerotech motors ever since I have been flying mid/high power (Other than the plant burning down). Other manufacturers have seemed to come and go or have problems with manufacturing/licensing but Gary seems to have all his ducks in a row. I know there are other manufacturers out there who will be around for a long time and I may buy others' cases as time and money allow.

I am an Aerotech hobby line dealer (even though they haven't listed my shop yet after sending in the papers. Are you there Gary?) so that may cloud my choice but I have less difficulty getting some of the mid power motors than some of the Quest or Estes motors sometimes. I still buy my high power motors through the same sources as everyone else.

I do think a 38mm cluster is easier to light successfully with the CTI motors. Not better just easier.

 

[cjl]

Thats cause you DID grease the liner. No liners are greased here!! I have NEVER had an issue getting one out.

Ben

I always grease them, and I never had a problem other than the K555 (and yes, that includes Loki, which I have greased and which work fine). I think I'll keep doing what works for me, especially as I am not likely to be flying another AMW snap ring load now that they are available for CTI cases

 

[Donaldsrockets]

I mostly fly AT as I have a slew of AT hardware.

I have virtually all the 29mm HPR hardware except the 120 and 360 cases and I have all the 38mm hardware except the 1080 case.

I personally like assembling the AT motors and I don't really mind the cleanup either and with the AT loads, I don't have to clean a nozzle.

As for the Pro38 Skids, those I REALLY want to fly, if only I could get past Mr. Anti-Sparky.

Sorry Harold, couldn't help myself!!!

 

[Garoq]

As I look through my motors I see a lot more Aerotech than CTI. A lot.

Availability is a major factor. Back in the old days (three months ago) I had to fly what the local vendors had since I have no LEUP.

Availability also has to do with longevity. I have been able to get Aerotech motors ever since I have been flying mid/high power (Other than the plant burning down). Other manufacturers have seemed to come and go or have problems with manufacturing/licensing but Gary seems to have all his ducks in a row. I know there are other manufacturers out there who will be around for a long time and I may buy others' cases as time and money allow.

I am an Aerotech hobby line dealer (even though they haven't listed my shop yet after sending in the papers. Are you there Gary?) so that may cloud my choice but I have less difficulty getting some of the mid power motors than some of the Quest or Estes motors sometimes. I still buy my high power motors through the same sources as everyone else.

I do think a 38mm cluster is easier to light successfully with the CTI motors. Not better just easier.

Joe,

PM me your contact info and I'll get you listed right away. I have some other edits to do there as well.

 

[MarkII]

MarkII

Anthony Cesaroni posted several times on TRF 1 that the starter pellet in Pro38 motors is BP, not Pyrodex(R).

Bob

I stand corrected. Whatever it was, it sure went "BOOM!" when it lit! When the motor got a start, so did I. <chuckle>

MarkII

 

[WILDMANRS]

They all have thier pros and cons
It all depends on whats your preferance
cost per reload ?
cost of hardware ?
ease of use ?
Which one is more important ?
Tim

 

[Garoq]

They all have thier pros and cons
It all depends on whats your preferance
cost per reload ?
cost of hardware ?
ease of use ?
Which one is more important ?
Tim

And...
Sound
Color
Performance
Availability
Reliability
Reload versatility
Hardware options
Interface capability

 

[butalane]

Ive had on AT load go boom due to Orings and (3 K1275's bubble/burn the case due to poor heat seal design) never had a single (EX or commercial) motor blow up. I am 100% successfull with snap rings motors. That being said I did have ONE motor let go at the top of the snap ring groove because the case was heat stressed. a 3 grain 76mm.

Ben

How did you know the case was "heat stressed?"

 

[n3tjm]

I always grease them, and I never had a problem other than the K555 (and yes, that includes Loki, which I have greased and which work fine). I think I'll keep doing what works for me, especially as I am not likely to be flying another AMW snap ring load now that they are available for CTI cases

I never grease the liner, and don't have problems getting them out. Sometmes you need a dowl and give it a good knock and it'll come right out.

Only time I ever had a problem getting a liner out was when someone else assembled the motor for me... and they greased the liner. Plyers and knife to scrape and pry a small piece out at a time.

Only place I put grease on my motors is on the nozzle and fwd bulkhead o-rings, a little around the wall of the delay well, and a little on the o-ring that goes around the delay element (no grease if the o-ring come in contact with the ejection charge).

 

[JoeG]

Joe,

PM me your contact info and I'll get you listed right away. I have some other edits to do there as well.

WOW!! Thanks Gary. That was fast. I'm listed on Aerotech's website AND I'm in the phone book!!

Joe

 

[rdmmdr]

Gary's service is great and his support of the launches over the years has been exceptional. I think the count is up to five demo motors so far, so about one a year. They normally show at our big launches, what happen to dairy aire this year gary ? And i have seen them warrenty a cato on the spot.

But as for this whole thing about cti vrs rms assembly times. A small motor up to a j it is two minutes max. A larger motor when you have to glue grains and the such it takes longer. And most high power guys launch only two or three times a day. i spent a lot longer looking for them then i do building motors. I have had one liner burn through that damaged a casing that i won't use anymore. i figure that in over a hundred rms launches that is not too bad of a record.

cti claim to fame is ease of loading. Yes a cti motor is easy to load by the time you get the package open without damaging it you have spent about a minute, call it a minute less then a rms. But since there was a 20% price difference between cti and rms i decided to go rms after my first cti purchase. I still have a five grain cti case if anyone is interested.

cti motors cato too. been there done that got the tee shirt.
gary has supported this community for alot of years and as a result i will continue to support him.

 

[Chrisn]

What kind of rocketeer doesnt like putting stuff together? Ones who dont buy kits thats who. Arguing over Aerotech and CTI is like Windows vs Linux.

 

[rdmmdr]

Chrisn

it is more like aluminium or aluminum. so if you spell it with the extra i, doe's that mean you are cti or aerotech.

lenux= aerotech, windows= cato, mac =cti

 

[Chrisn]

Chrisn

it is more like aluminium or aluminum. so if you spell it with the extra i, doe's that mean you are cti or aerotech.

lenux= aerotech, windows= cato, mac =cti

Ill spell it/say it the same way all the elements below Aluminium on group 13 are

 

[MarkII]

Aerotech vs. Cesaroni Technologies -- why must I choose? Why can't I have both? :confused2: That's really what I want.

MarkII

 

[Marsman]

Aerotech vs. Cesaroni Technologies -- why must I choose? Why can't I have both? :confused2: That's really what I want.

MarkII

Well said! My thoughts exactly.

 

[Pantherjon]

AT, CTI, Loki, Gorilla, AMW, soon to be re-released Kosden..Shoot, I want 'em all!:roll:

Variety is the 'spice of life'!

 

[kelltym88]

Different motors do different things depending on what you're looking for. Speed, strength, color. All based on how your rocket is built and so on.

I love AT redline motors, and mojave greens. Honestly, I really wasn't into CTI or Animal 'cause they weren't here in California.(Animal wasn't until recently, but CTI has been) But they are now, and having flown a skid recently, I plan on flying many, many more.

I always bring my AT catalog to a launch so I can see what motors will work best. Does AMW have a catalog? I could sure use one.


Here is an example of AT Black max motors: 1 J401 FJ and 2 G53FJ:

Photo by Mark Canepa