AeroTech Open Thread

Discussion in 'Propulsion' started by ATGM, May 16, 2015.

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  1. Feb 12, 2019 at 5:07 AM #2851

    Rocket86

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    It's winter and he doesn't do mail order. Might not make sense to have a lot of money tied up in inventory in the off season. And that's still a lot of money.
     
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  2. Feb 12, 2019 at 5:15 AM #2852

    afadeev

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    Dave,

    My favorite bakery was out of rye bread this evening.
    I therefore should conclude that there is a shortage of wheat and rye, and that the farmers are lazy and incompetent?

    a
     
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  3. Feb 12, 2019 at 5:41 AM #2853

    jjwb22101

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    When every bakery in your region is out of rye bread, you'd have to at least consider the possibility that there is another factor contributing to a shortage of rye. Especially when said bakers have been out of rye bread for the last 6 months, and are complaining about being unable to buy rye.

    While I don't entirely blame Aerotech for the shortage of motors and hardware (and I don't blame them at all for price increases - raw material costs HAVE gone up, and workers want to get paid), there are also some very real decisions that they have made that have hurt the availability of reloads and hardware. They haven't invested in having a stock of products, the sense that I get from talking to various vendors is that they take orders from vendors, and then make products to fill those orders as they come in, instead of having a stock of products that they can ship out immediately. While I understand that for some particularly niche motors or hardware it may not be feasible to keep large quantities in stock, it is also not difficult to know what motors are the most popular, and create enough of them to be able to immediately fill most orders from vendors. On the hardware side, I know they've been dealing with difficulties in finding machinists able to produce things correctly, but they also haven't had any licensed external hardware producers since Rouse-Tech closed down, and an external company might be more efficient since they could be effectively just the machining operation.
     
  4. Feb 12, 2019 at 8:21 AM #2854

    tbonerocketeer

    tbonerocketeer

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    Csrocketry.com and go compare the numbers..
     
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  5. Feb 12, 2019 at 8:26 AM #2855

    tbonerocketeer

    tbonerocketeer

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    If you want to become the license hardware guy like rousetech was, call Aerotech and I'm sure they would make an agreement...hope you have deep pockets for the amount of hardware parts to make.
     
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  6. Feb 12, 2019 at 8:36 PM #2856

    Ez2cDave

    Ez2cDave

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    Get the money from Aerotech up front . . . Sorry, but "business is business", especially if there are possible "cash flow" issues.

    Dave F.
     
  7. Feb 12, 2019 at 8:53 PM #2857

    Steve Shannon

    Steve Shannon

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    Two things:
    An Aerotech licensed hardware manufacturer doesn’t “get money” from AT. They sell their products separately. Dr. Rocket and Rouse-Tech were two excellent examples. That’s what Chris suggested you do.
    Second, it’s very dangerous to repeatedly make an unfounded statement about any company having cash flow problems.
     
  8. Feb 12, 2019 at 9:47 PM #2858

    Nathan

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    I've been waiting for 4 month for a M1850 White Lightning and a L1365 Metalstorm that I ordered from Performance Hobbies in October. Kenny showed me his latest Aerotech invoice just 2 days ago and they are still backordered, along with several reloads ordered by his other customers.
     
  9. Feb 12, 2019 at 10:27 PM #2859

    afadeev

    afadeev

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    Nathan,
    M1850 is readily available from:
    https://www.csrocketry.com/rocket-m...otech-m1850-white-lightning-rocket-motor.html
    https://wildmanrocketry.com/products/m1850w-p

    L1365 is readily available from:
    https://www.csrocketry.com/rocket-m.../aerotech-l1365-metal-storm-rocket-motor.html
    https://wildmanrocketry.com/products/l1365m
    http://www.balsamachining.com/#

    Feel free to send me a "thank you" check for doing the homework for you.
    o_O


    Yes, Dave, and virtually every manufacturing business has moved into just-in-time (JIT) supply chain management over the last few decades. For many compelling reasons.
    If you are not sure what those are, consider reading up from here:
    https://ocw.mit.edu/search/ocwsearch.htm?q=just in time


    As Steve had pointed out, unless you have facts to back up the above allegation (which you have made more than once now), you are dancing on the edge of legal slander.

    To what end?

    a
     
  10. Feb 12, 2019 at 10:30 PM #2860

    Ez2cDave

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    Well, it's not unfounded that they are having supply issues, for whatever reasons.

    The rest was merely "speculation" on my part, not an "accusation".

    Aside from the hardware shortages, what about the motor shortages and lengthy back-orders ?

    Whatever the cause, I sincerely hope they can get things worked out for the best !

    Dave F
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019 at 10:36 PM
  11. Feb 12, 2019 at 10:57 PM #2861

    davdue

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    Here is one comment from Charlie Savoie “AT GM”. I will try to find more back around the end/beginning of the year.
     
  12. Feb 12, 2019 at 11:39 PM #2862

    BBrown

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    So. . . . I'm going to throw out a different point of view. Perhaps the real culprit a specific motor not being available is . . . . US! The flyers! I've been in the hobby several years. When I joined, the motor selection was limited. From Aerotech there were three propellants, Black Jack, White Lightning, and Blue Thunder so basically there were about three reloads per motor case (I know there are exceptions to what I just said but bear with me).
    Then we got greedy! "I'd like a green for that case!" "I'd like a red for that case!" "Don't forget the sparkies!" "Fast burns, yea that’s the ticket!" And on . . . and on . . . . and on. Back in the day, you could expect a vendor to have one of each in stock, there wern't that many and Aerotech could keep up because they sold more of each type (I'm assuming this as I don't have access to their sales records nor would I want that).
    Now, there are tons of different reloads.
    So I got thinking, what would it cost for a dealer to have one reload (or pack if they are sold in multiples) in stock. Again, I don't have access to dealer costs but I do have access to the Aerotech Product list dated 10-31-2018 off of their website. Since it's a tad slow here, I decided to add up the retail cost of one reload of each type available. The number was staggering! $39,066.84! That's for 319 separate line items. By the way, this is for reloads or single use motors only, it doesn't include any hardware! How can we expect a small rocket vendor to have the specific reload I was looking for. There is no way that most of the small dealers could afford to do that.
    But then you say "Well Aerotech should be able to produce them quickly!" With the possibility of 319 different "things" to make, it no wonder there is a backlog problem. If I were production manager for Aerotech, I would have the Suicide Prevention Hotline on my phone's speed dial!
    Aerotech, for the life of me I can't figure out how you do it. Just keep doing it!
    Bob Brown
    Launch Director, LDRS 38
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2019 at 12:10 AM
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  13. Feb 13, 2019 at 2:52 AM #2863

    Ez2cDave

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    Bob,

    With that said, what is the solution to the problem, both in hardware & reloads ?

    Dave F.
     
  14. Feb 13, 2019 at 2:57 AM #2864

    timbucktoo

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    Use what hardware you have and buy what motors are available to fit your hardware and order what you want and wait. Or use Loki or CTI. Between the three, that gives you many options.
     
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  15. Feb 13, 2019 at 3:03 AM #2865

    Nathan

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    Thanks, I would order some more but between AMW and Performance Hobbies I'm already waiting on delivery of over $2000 of reloads. I'm not buying any more until I get the stuff I have already paid for. I just hope I get something delivered before Red Glare. Maybe next time I'll try Chris Short.
     
  16. Feb 13, 2019 at 3:35 AM #2866

    BBrown

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    Dave,
    I believe the “problem” may be more where you are looking rather than what’s available. Go back and re-read the past 30 posts in this thread and several times you will find. “I ordered X case and Y reload from my local vendor and I haven’t gotten in yet. Why is it not available?” Then, in the next post, someone posts that Wildman Rocketry or Chris’ Rocket Supplies (and others) has both in stock.
    So it would seem if I was looking for that X case, I would start with my local vendor and ask him if he has it. If the answer is “No”, I’d call (not email, not tweet, not rely on the website) but pick up the phone and call these guys and ask them if they have it. If you get a yes, buy it!
    Why do they have it? Because I suspect (know) they carry a ton more stock than nearly everyone else and buys product in large quantities when it’s available not just when they need it.
    I understand wanting to support your local vendor. If you don’t mind waiting some indeterminable length of time buying local is a good idea. If you need it quick, call Tim or Chris and talk to them. I suspect your “problem” will go away.
    Bob
     
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  17. Feb 13, 2019 at 3:46 AM #2867

    Ez2cDave

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    Bob,

    Sound advice . . . I'll give it a shot.

    Dave F.
     
  18. Feb 15, 2019 at 5:00 AM #2868

    grouch

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    Inline with's Bob's excellent post, how about the manufacturers develop a core line of loads for most cases. This could be a white, a smokey, and maybe a red or blue. Make sure there is enough supply to make the squeaky wheels happy. Then say twice a year or so do a "limited run" of an effect load like a skid/metalstorm/sparkie/green/super thunder or what ever. This way the manufacturers could streamline production a given core product and still be able to offer special loads form time to time instead of never having enough of any one given load. It also gives the motor collectors something to look forward to and stock up on. I like choices just fine but I wouldn't lose sleep if I could only get whites for a couple of years. Not sure why it has to be hard.
     
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  19. Feb 15, 2019 at 1:08 PM #2869

    DocR

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    I'm late to this thread but I agree with the thought of narrowing the massive number of loads for a particular hardware or impulse a bit. For most of the flights in my area I'd be happy with 1-2 reliably available loads in the H - J range, a few K's and L's, etc. And narrow the massive manufacturing nightmare. Then your production capability might have a chance to catch things up.
     
  20. Feb 15, 2019 at 2:35 PM #2870

    slothead

    slothead

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    Doesn't AT already do this? If I recall correctly, if you look at their motor instructions, each set of instructions is based on exhaust color and the thrust charts only vary in time (duration) and thrust. But maybe I'm missing some of your point.
     
  21. Feb 15, 2019 at 6:56 PM #2871

    Ez2cDave

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    I believe that his "point" is to reduce the variety of motors, while increasing the supply of motors available to vendors . . . I agree with this, also !

    Dave F.

    38mm Motors.JPG 54mm Motors.JPG 75mm Motors - 1.JPG 75mm Motors - 2.JPG 98mm Motors.JPG DMS - 38mm - 1.JPG DMS - 38mm - 2.JPG DMS - 54mm.JPG DMS - 75mm.JPG DMS - 98mm.JPG
     
  22. Feb 15, 2019 at 9:04 PM #2872

    Nathan

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    CTI makes even more reloads than that. The CTI list I have is several years old. It lists 285 different reloads although I think some of them were discontinued after the fire. Their supply problem seems to have never fully recovered.
     
  23. Feb 15, 2019 at 9:09 PM #2873

    Nytrunner

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    I believe it was V-max and Dual Thrust (which uses a V-max grain) that were discontinued.

    This makes sense as those require volatile chemicals and more hazardous processing. Methinks the formulation was similar to certain military propellants that were switched out for being "too hot" also, but I won't be discussing that further.
     
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  24. Feb 15, 2019 at 10:17 PM #2874

    rcktnut

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    Lots of different reloads to choose from but don't forget, most use the same propellant grains for a given diameter and "flavor", and its the number of grains that make the difference. That would make the list somewhat shorter.
     

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