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#### Kallahan11

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
I wonder if ATGM has given up on TRF. Last post was 11/20/17 (post 2052). Lots of unanswered questions in the past 3 months.
Hasn't been a lot on twitter or facebook either, just a F67 announcement.

#### Trident

##### Retired, plenty of kits
Any word on the 24/60 reloads? I know that one was certified at the same time as the F67. For that matter, how about any word on the Redline reload for the 29/40-120?

Phil L.
The new loads are listed on Aerotech website, but still not showing up on any dealer pages. There is a New Blue Thunder, a Black Max, and a Redline. I&#8217;ve been checking every few days. I had hoped to get some at NSL last May but no luck due to testing delays.

#### dpower

##### Well-Known Member
F67's are single use actually.... and are economax vs econojet.... As a consummate cheapskate... either way there is nothing (quite frankly) "econo" about them!
Both EconoMax F67 and EconoJet Fs are SU, use the exact same case and retail packaging, yet the F67 retails for 35% less! The econojet 2 packs have always been overpriced, lets hope theyre all brought down to the F67 price.

#### rcktnut

##### Well-Known Member
Both EconoMax F67 and EconoJet Fs are SU, use the exact same case and retail packaging, yet the F67 retails for 35% less! The econojet 2 packs have always been overpriced, let&#8217;s hope they&#8217;re all brought down to the F67 price.

Years ago the Econojets were pretty decently priced, used to fly a lot of them, not any more, $19.00 a pop for F-20's is bull. Too bad!! For got to mention retail price is$22.50 a piece, double bull!!

#### Initiator001

##### Well-Known Member
Both EconoMax F67 and EconoJet Fs are SU, use the exact same case and retail packaging, yet the F67 retails for 35% less! The econojet 2 packs have always been overpriced, let&#8217;s hope they&#8217;re all brought down to the F67 price.
Prices only go up, never down.

I learned that lesson along with the rest of us at AeroTech about 28 years ago.

AeroTech improved their production methods and was able to reduce the SRP of the motors $1-$3 each.
We put a full page ad in the hobby industry magazines announcing this development thinking the hobby distributors and retailers would like it.
They HATED it.
Many of them were sitting on older stock that they had bought at the earlier/higher prices.
They were screaming at us (AeroTech) about wanting compensation for the loss of $$this would cause or they would drop the product line. When 80% of your customers threaten to drop your product line, you do what your customers want. We mailed out additional motors for free to hobby distributors or gave them credit on future orders. We (AeroTech) could've gone out of business. We learned our lesson. #### tbonerocketeer ##### Sponsor TRF Sponsor TRF Supporter I wonder if ATGM has given up on TRF. Last post was 11/20/17 (post 2052). Lots of unanswered questions in the past 3 months. I'm sure he will be back, but Aerotech is swamped with orders so he is out in production. #### markkoelsch ##### Well-Known Member F67s came today... A day early. Now if only I could find the appropriate .eng or .rse file! In the next couple of days. I had hoped to have it done earlier this week, but work turned into a marathon this last week. Combine that with a badly pulled neck muscle ( think a feeling like whiplash) and motor files not at the top of the list. Sent from my iPhone using Rocketry Forum #### DeltaVee ##### HV Arcas, AT F67 In the next couple of days. I had hoped to have it done earlier this week, but work turned into a marathon this last week. Combine that with a badly pulled neck muscle ( think a feeling like whiplash) and motor files not at the top of the list. Sent from my iPhone using Rocketry Forum Did manage to trick one up using the graphic on the back of the package. I posted it Thursday in this thread... Perhaps not the best place and it's definitely not the most accurate! But it seems close enough to do ballpark simulations. Looking forward to a more accurate.curve! Last edited: #### rcktnut ##### Well-Known Member Prices only go up, never down. I learned that lesson along with the rest of us at AeroTech about 28 years ago. AeroTech improved their production methods and was able to reduce the SRP of the motors 1-3 each. We put a full page ad in the hobby industry magazines announcing this development thinking the hobby distributors and retailers would like it. They HATED it. Many of them were sitting on older stock that they had bought at the earlier/higher prices. They were screaming at us (AeroTech) about wanting compensation for the loss of$$$this would cause or they would drop the product line. When 80% of your customers threaten to drop your product line, you do what your customers want. We mailed out additional motors for free to hobby distributors or gave them credit on future orders. We (AeroTech) could've gone out of business. We learned our lesson. Granted prices always go up but I've always considered the Econojets as entry level motors into MPR. I always loved the Econojets including the G35, they were my motors of choice when I became a bar. Flew MPR for 9 years due to BATF restrictions. Now these motors are a do not enter the hobby choice because of the cost. Our club sets up a rocketry booth at a local national RC model aircraft fly in. They attract thousands of spectators. WE have MPR & HPR rockets, motors, launchers etc. on display. We had one last year. And yes I had my pack of F20-7's, and other single use motors there along with reloadable motor cases from 18mm to 98mm. Lots of interested people until they ask what it costs for the motors including again the F-20's. Then it's see-ya- later. We tell them that the reloadable options are much cheaper once you get by the cost of the hardware, and we would not suggest the reloadables for entering MPR anyway. So what is left? Nothing. People lose interest real quick when it costs them$20.00 a shot to put a MPR up. The G38's were even taken out of the Econojet line and now sold separately at retail for $27.99. Here is the 2001 price sheet for the Hobbyline motors. Why a 130% increase in price on the Econojets from then till now, and nothing near that with the other motors? Some of the other single use Hobbyline are close, being a 100% increase. Should have kept them at a price that just might lure a few more people into the hobby. #### Tobor ##### Get your peanuts.... TRF Supporter Lots of reasons for the huge percentage increase come to mind. Corporate liability insurance has skyrocketed since the turn of the century. Local, state and federal regulation compliance fees for companies have gone through the roof in recent years. Employee wages, cost of living increases, workmans comp., etc... have all impacted the bottom line of most companies across the US. so, it's either raise prices (and hope sales don't plummet) or close up shop. I vote for the former. #### rcktnut ##### Well-Known Member Lots of reasons for the huge percentage increase come to mind. Corporate liability insurance has skyrocketed since the turn of the century. Local, state and federal regulation compliance fees for companies have gone through the roof in recent years. Employee wages, cost of living increases, workmans comp., etc... have all impacted the bottom line of most companies across the US. so, it's either raise prices (and hope sales don't plummet) or close up shop. I vote for the former. Just say'in new F67's same total impulse as F20's same motor casings the way it looks, big difference in price, WHY?? You can even get a little over a full F the G74 for much less than the F20's. I did not bring up the difference first, just say'in again the Econojets used to be pretty reasonably priced at one time. That is the only reason I cared to elaborate on the subject a bit. #### Tobor ##### Get your peanuts.... TRF Supporter Just say'in new F67's same total impulse as F20's same motor casings the way it looks, big difference in price, WHY?? You can even get a little over a full F the G74 for much less than the F20's. I did not bring up the difference first, just say'in again the Econojets used to be pretty reasonably priced at one time. That is the only reason I cared to elaborate on the subject a bit. Yeah, sorry if I came off on the aggressive side, that was not my intent. #### DannyB ##### Lifetime Supporter TRF Lifetime Supporter #### Normzilla ##### Well-Known Member Man those F76's are really nice! Pushed my WM Shape-Shifter Mini up FAST! Great sounding motor. Totally picking more up. [video=youtube;ND7QFEr5sHI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ND7QFEr5sHI[/video] #### tfish ##### Well-Known Member The below info is for the wrong oring stated above...that's what I get for replying based on my memory.. That oring is used on 54mm motors that use the smaller 29/38mm nozzles (and special closure). Its not need on kits that use the "true" 54mm nozzles. Tony Last edited: #### Reinhard ##### Well-Known Member The below info is for the wrong oring stated above...that's what I get for replying based on my memory.. That oring is used on 54mm motors that use the smaller 29/38mm nozzles (and special closure). Its not need on kits that use the "true" 54mm nozzles. Tony I haven't seen your post before you edited it, but you might have been right in the first place. The o-ring used on the small nozzle is RCS P/N 00020, labeled "19" here: http://www.aerotech-rocketry.com/up...-8b59-20feb0acf5b4_54-426_i115w-m_sn_assy.pdf RCS P/N 00032 goes in between the nozzle and the liner, also labeled "19" here: http://www.aerotech-rocketry.com/cu.../54mm_hp_rms/54-1706/54-1706_k550w-m_assy.pdf Bigger reloads don't use either of the above mentioned o-rings http://www.aerotech-rocketry.com/cu.../54mm_hp_rms/54-2560/54-2560_k700w-p_assy.pdf At first, it looks like 00032 is only used with the medusa nozzle. Thinking about it again, I suspect that 00032 was ATs initial approach to prevent gases from flowing down outside of the liner; putting it on the nozzle shoulder required no additional part. Longer motors require the forward seal disc, with 00032 being left out to allow pressure equalization. That's less than my 2ct tough - it's only a guess. Reinhard #### dpower ##### Well-Known Member Man those F76's are really nice! Pushed my WM Shape-Shifter Mini up FAST! Great sounding motor. Totally picking more up. F67s? I put up a 2.6 2 lb rocket on an F67-4 yesterday, that Ive flown previously only on G/H motors. Only about 600, but plenty of thrust off the pad! #### recon60 ##### Active Member #### DeltaVee ##### HV Arcas, AT F67 Since I had nothing better to do on a Saturday morning with tons of snow on the ground... and since I noticed the F51 isn't on thrustcurve.org.... here is the F51 thrust curve as best as I can do it from the pdf on nar.org. The total weight is a swag based on the 24/60 F35 reload. Also the thrust was scaled by a factor of 1.05 to get the total impulse to match the 51 NS or so in the data sheet. The delay of 9 seconds is what the data sheet says it ended up being even tho it's designated as "10" View attachment F51NT.zip Did I say 51? I mean 55.... #### grouch ##### Well-Known Member Curious if there has been any more developments with the idea of 29mm Super Thunders or Dark Matters. Sent from my iPad using Rocketry Forum #### rhildinger ##### Well-Known Member AT seems to be falling further and further behind the eight ball in their production deliveries, with hardware being noticeably (and perhaps notoriously now) more difficult to obtain. I noticed that Bill over at Balsa Machining changed his preorder statement to indicate increasing problems with delays in Aerotech delivery. DOes anyone have any insight into what's going on? Is it company problems or just demand far outpacing production capabilities? Hopefully it's just the latter and the company is doing well... #### terryg ##### Well-Known Member I suspect it is the aftermath of the Wildman Black Saturday sale coupled with the attempt to bring Quest motors to the market. Whether that is worth the distraction from AeroTech's established high power market remains to be seen. #### ATGM ##### Always Test for Good Measure TRF Supporter Any word on the new 24-60 reloads? Certified and available for purchase. #### ATGM ##### Always Test for Good Measure TRF Supporter Please email warranty@aerotech-rocketry.com so we can take care of those for you. Just had my second CATO of a 40-120 Hobbyline case (my only CATOs in ~50 composite reload flights in 18-38mm). In both cases, the forward closure blew out due to apparent thread failure (post CATO, the threads on the forward closure are notably shiny, i.e. they have been scraped off to at least past the depth of the anodizing). Motors blew out just after coming to pressure, still on the rail. The rear closure and nozzle held, actually blowing out the back of the rocket and taking the Estes plastic retainer with it. Sadly, both cases were outside the warranty so I'm kind of hosed on that end. Anybody else had similar failures with this casing? Seems like the thin wall (and thus shallow threading) of the case might be a marginal design (if anything, you'd think the plastic nozzle would go first in a true overpressure)? Which would be a shame, because I love the reloads - not a huge variety but inexpensive and great for the Estes PSII line. #### ATGM ##### Always Test for Good Measure TRF Supporter As others stated, J520W is the new addition to the non-Hazmat list. Alas, it's also on the "I can't order it anywhere" list. I just placed an order for 2 out of 3. The best part is that non- HZMT H130W (210 Ns) is roughly the same impulse but cheaper than the equivalent H-motor from the other non-HZMT motor supplier. I180W (326 Ns) is cheaper, but way less thrusty than I201-LR. J520W (731 Ns) is, unfortunately, both more expensive and less thrusty than J528-LW. Charles, can you do something about the list pricing ? a It's difficult to compare pricing with brand L because his reloads reuse a nozzle whereas we include one with each reload. Also, you will have to add$33 to their J to cover the haz.

If you're just gonna pick one up at the launch then the J520 isn't as beneficial. The main benefit of the US mailables is to eliminate the \$33 racket charge.

The 38mm HP reloads that are US mailable require a bit more labor so the price is what it is.

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Certified and available for purchase.
Charles,

I just checked, and neither Sirius, BMW, nor Wildman have any (other than the old F35s):
https://wildmanrocketry.com/collections/motors-aerotech-24mm-60
http://www.balsamachining.com/

The only place I could find them as on AT's own web site (at full MSRP of 25.99).

On a somewhat related subject, what's the over/under on getting 24-40 motors hardware back on the shelves before end of 2Q?

TIA,
a

#### djs

##### Well-Known Member
ATGM- any news on the 29/40-120 red load?

#### ATGM

##### Always Test for Good Measure
TRF Supporter
Unfortunately the licensees did not have interest in adapter systems as that would hurt their other sales. The lack of adapters (think 75mm) killed us competitively, that is one reason why we took control of the hardware.

Past tense.

What happened to that?

Nate

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Rocketry Forum mobile app

#### ATGM

##### Always Test for Good Measure
TRF Supporter
Yeah these "systems" were incredibly popular when the RMS first came out. They are still available but we have also introduced hardware combos that include a ras and a case or 2 for a great price. Unfortunately our hardware flow has not allowed us to ship out many of them but keep an eye out in the coming months as we get the shelves filled up again.

Question: This morning while perusing the Net I found a reference to a RMS 38/120-360 hardware set. Does/Did this really exist?

#### ATGM

##### Always Test for Good Measure
TRF Supporter
Thanks for your patience during the process, Karl usually does a good job keeping up on them.

I just got my warranty 29/40-120 from AT yesterday along with the warranty replacement reload, great service even if it did take 3 months, Karl was upfront about the whole process.