AeroTech Open Thread

[AlexBruccoleri]

A Warp-9 grain? You would increase the (initial) thrust and pressure and risk failure by cutting the grain into shorter segments.

White lightning. I want to double the thrust of the k458.

 

[3stoogesrocketry]

White lightning. I want to double the thrust of the k458.

Alex , Message in a PM , as this is now crossing into the EX realm.

 

[AlexBruccoleri]

Alex , Message in a PM , as this is now crossing into the EX realm.

Okay understood. I had forgot about that rule and agreed, this is getting into the EX realm.

 

[rharshberger]

Okay understood. I had forgot about that rule and agreed, this is getting into the EX realm.

Or move the discussion to the research section by startingva new thread there.

 

[AlexBruccoleri]

Or move the discussion to the research section by startingva new thread there.

Yeah I could. Though maybe a more fair question, is there a "trivial" way Aerotech could sell 2x thrust 98 mm white lightning motors? I have no desire to get into EX hobby rocketry, (though I was not aware RCS is selling grains....). Aerotech has enough on their plate, but I would like to see some higher thrust motors in 98 mm. Unfortunately most East Coast fields are 'waiver" limited and a 5-6 second burn for L or M motor will bust the waivers.

 

[rharshberger]

Fair enough

 

[boatgeek]

Yeah I could. Though maybe a more fair question, is there a "trivial" way Aerotech could sell 2x thrust 98 mm white lightning motors? I have no desire to get into EX hobby rocketry, (though I was not aware RCS is selling grains....). Aerotech has enough on their plate, but I would like to see some higher thrust motors in 98 mm. Unfortunately most East Coast fields are 'waiver" limited and a 5-6 second burn for L or M motor will bust the waivers.

I'm pretty sure they'd have to go through the standard certification process, plus add it to their regular stock system. Given the other challenges on their plate, this seems kind of unlikely.

That said, using grains and other supplies from RCS is probably the only way I'd be able to get into EX since I don't have the time, facilities, or expertise to mix my own propellant.

 

[Theory]

We had an N10500ST for the 98/15360 case on the design board but we haven't tested one yet. I think the core would have to be too big.

Uummm… yup, like everything about that.

To be fair, I’m an East Coast flyer so I’m not really a customer for that load, but it is 110% my style!!!

 

[AlexBruccoleri]

I'm pretty sure they'd have to go through the standard certification process, plus add it to their regular stock system. Given the other challenges on their plate, this seems kind of unlikely.

That said, using grains and other supplies from RCS is probably the only way I'd be able to get into EX since I don't have the time, facilities, or expertise to mix my own propellant.

I agree with everything here and they definitely need to go through certification. I was hoping they could pull it off with existing parts. Lets see what they say about it though.

 

[AeroTech]

Yeah I could. Though maybe a more fair question, is there a "trivial" way Aerotech could sell 2x thrust 98 mm white lightning motors? I have no desire to get into EX hobby rocketry, (though I was not aware RCS is selling grains....). Aerotech has enough on their plate, but I would like to see some higher thrust motors in 98 mm. Unfortunately most East Coast fields are 'waiver" limited and a 5-6 second burn for L or M motor will bust the waivers.

K1999N, L2500ST, M4500ST, M6000ST should be high enough thrust for you.

 

[AlexBruccoleri]

K1999N, L2500ST, M4500ST, M6000ST should be high enough thrust for you.

Indeed and I have two K1999Ns on order. It is a great motor for big rockets with low waivers. I should clarify though, that I was curious about white lightning. In my very subjective opinion, that is the most fun propellant by a big margin. Also to further clarify, I am not looking for anything now. This is just a question for the future. Is there a way AeroTech can make higher thrust WL in 98 without a significant design effort? My thought was shorter grains and a bigger nozzle, but there could be nuisances.

Also I am confused about the forum rules. So maybe for both brevity and being cautious with the rules, you can answer if it is something "straightforward" or "involved". Even if it is easy there is no doubt a lot of work getting a motor to market, but if enough fliers show interests, maybe it would be worthwhile.

 

[AeroTech]

Indeed and I have two K1999Ns on order. It is a great motor for big rockets with low waivers. I should clarify though, that I was curious about white lightning. In my very subjective opinion, that is the most fun propellant by a big margin. Also to further clarify, I am not looking for anything now. This is just a question for the future. Is there a way AeroTech can make higher thrust WL in 98 without a significant design effort? My thought was shorter grains and a bigger nozzle, but there could be nuisances.

Also I am confused about the forum rules. So maybe for both brevity and being cautious with the rules, you can answer if it is something "straightforward" or "involved". Even if it is easy there is no doubt a lot of work getting a motor to market, but if enough fliers show interests, maybe it would be worthwhile.

Yes, Fast White could be used to deliver the approximate burn rate and thrust of Blue Thunder. Fast White is used in the Q-Jets.

 

[loopy]

Sweet baby Jesus....those thrust curves!!!

 

[FlyBy01]

@AeroTech Please make an M level Dark Matter motor. I want to do my level 3 on a Dark Matter motor but the 75mm only has an L level motor.

 

[Theory]

they have a 98mm DM M motor

its a "little baby M" too so it will work well given the altitude you are looking to hit

 

[AlexBruccoleri]

Yes, Fast White could be used to deliver the approximate burn rate and thrust of Blue Thunder. Fast White is used in the Q-Jets.

Thanks for the reply. I will send a follow-up in a PM to avoid violating the forum rules.

 

[FlyBy01]

they have a 98mm DM M motor

its a "little baby M" too so it will work well given the altitude you are looking to hit

75mm $391.00 vs. 98mm $500.00 each motor.

 

[Theory]

75mm $391.00 vs. 98mm $500.00 each motor.

L3 ain’t no game. Man up!

J/K. That 98mm case also lets you fly the M4500!

…and the M1075 can be had for $412.49

 

[jmasterj]

75mm $391.00 vs. 98mm $500.00 each motor.

Agreed, 75mm 6 grain is $90 cheaper retail than a 98mm 3 grain. Hardware's cheaper, too. I love Dark Matter. I'm nowhere near L3, though, so this specific motor isn't applicable to me.

 

[FlyBy01]

L3 ain’t no game. Man up!

J/K. That 98mm case also lets you fly the M4500!

…and the M1075 can be had for $412.49

PM mw on where you are finding an M1075 for $412.49? I am a part of Tim's Wildman club and it's not that cheap on there.

 

[jmasterj]

PM mw on where you are finding an M1075 for $412.49? I am a part of Tim's Wildman club and it's not that cheap on there.

Pre-order from BMS I think.

 

[Theory]

Yes, pre order, though from Sirius Rocketry

 

[Tom Flint]

Speaking of Q-jets and fast propellant, would you be able to make C and D Q-jets that aren't so darn fast? Maybe a Warp-9 endburner?

 

[AeroTech]

Speaking of Q-jets and fast propellant, would you be able to make C and D Q-jets that aren't so darn fast? Maybe a Warp-9 endburner?

We looked at that of course. The first design challenge with small composites is that the nozzle throat must be large enough to allow an initiator to pass through. We found that size to be 0.090”. This in turn determined the burn rate and propellant surface area required to ensure stable combustion. Black Max and Fast White met that requirement, along with being cool enough burning to prevent destruction of the clay nozzle. The clay erodes too much with hotter propellants and longer burn times. Endburners are tricky to make with thermoplastic cases and would require insulation. That reduces the grain diameter and total impulse. Warp-9 is difficult to cast in diameters smaller than about 1-1/4”. It could be pressure extruded into smaller tubes but with increased cost of labor. Warp-9 uses a very expensive burn rate catalyst so that would factor into an increased cost as well. Finally, there are problems associated with transitioning composite end burning grains to a time delay grain. Black powder motors don’t have this issue because the charges are pressed on top of each other in direct contact with no space between. Composite grains would have to be bonded together, otherwise you risk blowing the motor casing when the end burning grain burns through to the delay (three propellant ends are now burning simultaneously). Bonding would have to be accomplished using a propellant adhesive that would prevent snuffing of the delay, and there are problems associated with ensuring the reliability of that process and the performance outcome.

 

[Theory]

that is one heck of an explanation!

thank you Aerotech

 

[Theory]

@AeroTech Please make an M level Dark Matter motor. I want to do my level 3 on a Dark Matter motor but the 75mm only has an L level motor.

took a closer look at this, the L1250 in the 75/6400 case is 4374Ns.

do not believe that a DM load in the 75/7680 case would get you to the 5100ish Ns required for an M.

especially when comparing the DM loads in the 75/5120 case to the L1250 in the 75/6400...

 

[jmasterj]

took a closer look at this, the L1250 in the 75/6400 case is 4374Ns.

do not believe that a DM load in the 75/7680 case would get you to the 5100ish Ns required for an M.

especially when comparing the DM loads in the 75/5120 case to the L1250 in the 75/6400...

Interesting, thanks for pointing this out! It looks like a 75mm 6-grain DM might be around 5000Ns, not quite an M, based on the 4- and 5-grain DM motors.

Looking at the 75mm and 98mm DM grains on the RCS store, it looks like two 75mm grains are equivalent in propellant weight to one 98mm grain, and indeed both the 75mm 6-grain case and the 98mm 3-grain cases are named 7680 in AT's naming scheme. Obviously there are more factors here than I understand.
https://www.rocketmotorparts.com/75mm_Metalstorm_DM__Propellant_Grain/p1577809_21347097.aspxhttps://www.rocketmotorparts.com/98mm_Metalstorm_DM__Propellant_Grain/p1577809_18602311.aspx

 

[StreuB1]

Speaking of igniters and small throats.

I have a series of F and G reloads that came with the FF ignitor with the short 8" leads (Jr?) but the pyrogen head is enormous. It is literally 150% of the throat diameter. I had some FF mini(micro?) in my ignitor box that I was able to use but I don't have many of them. The reload that I flew 2 weeks ago was a G54W in the 29/100 case. Went out to the pad, set everything up, went to insert the ignitor and was like "wait a min......thats not going to work!!!"

 

[Antares JS]

Speaking of igniters and small throats.

I have a series of F and G reloads that came with the FF ignitor with the short 8" leads (Jr?) but the pyrogen head is enormous. It is literally 150% of the throat diameter. I had some FF mini(micro?) in my ignitor box that I was able to use but I don't have many of them. The reload that I flew 2 weeks ago was a G54W in the 29/100 case. Went out to the pad, set everything up, went to insert the ignitor and was like "wait a min......thats not going to work!!!"

Don't the instructions for those reloads say to install the igniter before putting the nozzle on?

 

[StreuB1]

Don't the instructions for those reloads say to install the igniter before putting the nozzle on?

Honestly, I don't know......

Though if they did, that would be in violation of our safety code (no?) as it would require to install the ignitor in the motor before it is on the pad?

Installation of the ignitor prior to being at the pad (IIRC?) is only allowed in instanced where it is impossible or difficult to do otherwise; ie. staging, clusters, etc. Correct?