Aerotech Arreaux for L1 Cert

jcampb81

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Has anyone one here used an AT Arreaux for their L1 certification flight using a29mm H? If so, what motor did you use?

The field I’ll be flying at does not have an FAA waiver so I am handicapped with the <125g propellant weight and 3.3lb pad weight.
 

J Blatz

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Yes. You can run an H128 or similar for certain. Myself and Bobby Rosenfield did some experimentation on this back in 2001. IIRC the H180 shredded the Arreaux tho. I’d stay in the baby H range if flying stock.
 

Scott_650

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Phew! Hopefully you have a decent sized recovery area and access to at least a tracker and/or a Jolly Logic Chute Release - even a low end H is going to push an Arreaux over 4000 feet. If you can come up with something with more drag it’ll make your qualification attempt more likely to succeed.

If you want to stick with Aerotech kits stepping up to an Initiator will keep your attempt under 2000 feet - a LOC Lil’ Nuke or a Balsa Machining Service 29mm powered 3” School Rocket also could be viable choices for staying lightweight and not going way, way high 😎 Good luck with your attempt - post an update and let us know.
 

UhClem

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Not the best idea.

Once long ago I watched the guy next to me prepping an AT Arreaux for a certification flight. The motor was a Vulcan H100 (Which dates this story.) which stuck quite a ways out of the stock motor mount.

He was stuffing coins into the nose and balancing it to see if he needed more.

On the plus side it was a stable flight. But it was flown at twilight and judging by the loud boom at ejection probably spit the motor. By great good luck it came down under parachute to the west so it was silhouetted against the fading light.
 

jcampb81

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Phew! Hopefully you have a decent sized recovery area and access to at least a tracker and/or a Jolly Logic Chute Release - even a low end H is going to push an Arreaux over 4000 feet. If you can come up with something with more drag it’ll make your qualification attempt more likely to succeed.

If you want to stick with Aerotech kits stepping up to an Initiator will keep your attempt under 2000 feet - a LOC Lil’ Nuke or a Balsa Machining Service 29mm powered 3” School Rocket also could be viable choices for staying lightweight and not going way, way high 😎 Good luck with your attempt - post an update and let us know.
Yeah I 100% agree with the best idea being to upgrade to a heavier rocket to keep the altitude down, but I was trying to avoid spending ~$100 on a kit and then also turning around and buying a ~$100 motor with Hazmat since I already have the Arreaux.

Plus with the heavier rockets I would be getting dangerously close to the 3.3lbs pad weight limit
 

Scott_650

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Yeah I 100% agree with the best idea being to upgrade to a heavier rocket to keep the altitude down, but I was trying to avoid spending ~$100 on a kit and then also turning around and buying a ~$100 motor with Hazmat since I already have the Arreaux.

Plus with the heavier rockets I would be getting dangerously close to the 3.3lbs pad weight limit

Hmm..questions, questions…can you give us some insight as to how you’re planning to make your attempt? At a club launch? What’s the site like? Who’s going to sign off on the paperwork?
 

tsmith1315

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I don't remember how close to 1500g a stock Arreaux is, but an Eggfinder mini fits nicely in the nosecone. I'll weigh mine (with this LabRat mount) later this evening if you'd like.

Rocket parts.png
 

jcampb81

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Hmm..questions, questions…can you give us some insight as to how you’re planning to make your attempt? At a club launch? What’s the site like? Who’s going to sign off on the paperwork?
Yeah so I emailed the local NAR club about joining and getting my L1 and they mentioned that since COVID that they only do launches by request now for the most part, but that I could most certainly get my L1 with them. As far as the exact particulars of who is going to sign off, I do not know..
The launch site is at a local R/C field and is located close to the airport (hence the no waiver).
I am still trying to decide how and when to do it, which is part of the reason for the original post
 

Scott_650

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Yeah so I emailed the local NAR club about joining and getting my L1 and they mentioned that since COVID that they only do launches by request now for the most part, but that I could most certainly get my L1 with them. As far as the exact particulars of who is going to sign off, I do not know..
The launch site is at a local R/C field and is located close to the airport (hence the no waiver).
I am still trying to decide how and when to do it, which is part of the reason for the original post
If the Arreaux is what you’re going with here’s some suggestions:

- as tsmith posted already, an Eggfinder Mini is a good choice if Cris at Eggtimer can get the chips needed - he’s been having supply chain problems (of course).

- Apogee has a sim file for the Arreaux on their site, download Open Rocket if you haven’t already and start running your sims, add some ballast and see if you can keep it from overflying your site though sometimes ballast can increase your apogee up to a certain weight.

- If you have or can borrow a Chute Release consider using a streamer for the initial, motor ejection charge recovery event, then deploy the main chute with the Release. That method has worked well for me and I’ve watched it work well for others. I used that technique for my L1 flight though it wasn’t really necessary - I used a fat, heavy 4” crayon bank based kit for my attempt so it didn’t go all that high.

Thanks for posting this - a small diameter, lightweight rocket is a bit of a challenge for an L1 attempt so it’s fun to work through the ways to make it work.
 

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Thanks for posting this - a small diameter, lightweight rocket is a bit of a challenge for an L1 attempt so it’s fun to work through the ways to make it work.

+1

Another option is dual deployment with a Quark. They're inexpensive and would fit into an AT 1.9" coupler fairly easily. And probably the least expensive option to aid in recovery.
 

DarthMuffin

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I did my L1 cert on a Cheetah, which is really similar, with an H180. Had an eggfinder mini in the nose cone but it landed close enough I didn't need it. Worked great. It's had a half-dozen high power launches since then up through an H203 which I think went supersonic very briefly.
 

Scott_650

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I did my L1 cert on a Cheetah, which is really similar, with an H180. Had an eggfinder mini in the nose cone but it landed close enough I didn't need it. Worked great. It's had a half-dozen high power launches since then up through an H203 which I think went supersonic very briefly.

Oh, it can work - if the surface and upper winds are calm, otherwise I’ve seen small rockets on bigger motors drift a long, long way, some never to be seen again. Low and slow takes one variable out of the equation but high and fast can work on the right field on the right day. Big and high isn’t much better - I watched a newer rocketeer send his LOC IV up on the biggest H he could find for his cert attempt (the LSO and LCO tried to talk him out of it) - he was still looking for his rocket when the club started packing up the GSE.

The one piece of advice I was given by some really experienced HPR flyers that doesn’t always pop up in these conversations is practice, practice, practice! By the time I did my L1 cert flight I’d flown my 4” crayon rocket many times on the smallest to largest motors practicable so I had a solid experience base with it and our field.
 

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I have an Arreaux and build a second payload tube configured for dual deploy. You can buy the C188 body tube and coupler stock from BMS. I use an Eggtimer Quantum. H128 will put you over 3000'.
 

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If you haven’t purchased the rocket yet, I would recommend the Aerotech HV Arcas. It’s a little bigger and flies great on an H128 or the redline motor for the same case. Add an Aeropack motor retainer (make sure to modify the rocket motor tube length for the retainer) and you will be good to go. The rocket will go to 3,000 feet or so and is big enough to see during the entire flight.
If your mind is set on the Cheetah, the H128 should do if you use epoxy to build the rocket.
 
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Has anyone one here used an AT Arreaux for their L1 certification flight using a29mm H? If so, what motor did you use?

The field I’ll be flying at does not have an FAA waiver so I am handicapped with the <125g propellant weight and 3.3lb pad weight.
I'd use the lowest propellant content H you can get. The Arreaux will do 3500ft on a G64. You can reduce your altitude by increasing the weight. Make sure you use a decent glue for the plastic fins. Make sure you sim it with your finished weights. And understand the weight of all your objects when multiplied by your G force is.
Good luck with the L1 cert.
Norm
 

jmasterj

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If you have a chance to practice with it before the cert, fly it on a G76. Similar initial thrust to the H128 that would work well for the cert flight. Other than it floating a long way, I don't think you'll have any trouble on a baby H.
 

DarthMuffin

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Oh, it can work - if the surface and upper winds are calm, otherwise I’ve seen small rockets on bigger motors drift a long, long way, some never to be seen again.
Definitely! It was unusually calm weather and a lucky shot. The proving flight with a G an hour before that landed much farther away. For subsequent flights I've purchased a LJCR. Barely fits in the tube but works... usually. I've still had some hikes to find it.

A 3 grain H, like a CTI H87 works beautifully.

Dunno if it makes a difference but I also assembled my Cheetah with JB Quick epoxy because it was what I had (out camping and watching a launch when a friend used his powers for evil and talked me into a new money sink hobby). Also replaced the bungee with kevlar and replaced the forward motor tube cap (with the stainless pot scrubber type filter) with a home made centering ring whittled out of whatever heavy cardboard I could find.

To mount the eggtracker (I have since printed a sled) I cut out the flat portion on the nose cone base and slid it in there with the battery, then packed it full of bubble wrap. Ran a screw across the botttom to keep it from coming out.
 
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jmasterj

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The advantage of a small Aerotech H is no hazmat, especially since it sounds like you'll have to have it shipped rather than buying at the launch.
 

jcampb81

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Thanks for all the replies! (I forgot to mention that I would plan on using a DMS for this flight as I have no reloadable 29mm hardware)

The way I see it I have 4 options:

1) Do nothing
Stuff the smallest dms H I can buy (H115DM, slowest velocity and lowest Apogee) in there and hope the Good Lord is on my side that day.
Cheapest, least effort

2) Cut a hole in the parachute
Same as 1 but won’t drift as far.
Still cheapest, minuscule more effort than 1

3) JLCR
This would be most ideal but most likely most expensive. Less brain power than option 4

4) Go full out, Dual Deploy
Cheaper than option 3 but would require more effort, brain power, and longer lead times. More expensive than 1 or 2
 

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If get something like a Zephyr or a Loc IV. You can fly it at your non-waiver field on G’s as well as easily get your L1 at the NAR club field with the waiver on an H. Both are pretty versatile. Even something like a T-Loc 4 flies great on Fs and Gs and only goes to 1800 or so on a baby H. I would bypass the Arreaux if you havent already purchased it and are really thinking about getting your L1.
 

jcampb81

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If get something like a Zephyr or a Loc IV. You can fly it at your non-waiver field on G’s as well as easily get your L1 at the NAR club field with the waiver on an H. Both are pretty versatile. Even something like a T-Loc 4 flies great on Fs and Gs and only goes to 1800 or so on a baby H. I would bypass the Arreaux if you havent already purchased it and are really thinking about getting your L1.
I already have the Arreaux and was looking for tips and tricks to use it for my L1. Not completely sold on using it yet, but would like to avoid the ~$300 price tag it would cost me to fully go 38mm, buy a new kit, hardware, and motor.

EDIT: Also the non-waiver field is the club field :/
 
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Check your bank balance and employment status. Check whether your balance availability agrees with the thoughts of your significant other. Make a decision, Check with sig other BEFORE implementing....... :)
Here's an Arreaux, 2500ft on a G53? and no proper nosecone. It had a camera gaffer taped instead..... And a big spill hole.
Norm
 
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TheTank

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I already have the Arreaux and was looking for tips and tricks to use it for my L1. Not completely sold on using it yet, but would like to avoid the ~$300 price tag it would cost me to fully go 38mm, buy a new kit, hardware, and motor.

EDIT: Also the non-waiver field is the club field :/

I get it but the likelihood is very high that that you wont recover the Arreaux on an H. As for 300$, a T-Loc 4 with recovery is 66$ from Flightsketch with free shipping. Grab a single use 29mm H motor for 40$ and for 100$ your done.

Also, how is the club going to complete an L1/High Power cert for you without a waiver/certificate of authorization in place for High Power?

142678F8-1596-49D7-88C6-703ECF85E77B.png
 

Jim Hinton

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For what it's worth,( probably not much), the Arreauxbee High would be a better choice than the Arreaux with L1 certification in mind. I have both rockets, the Arreaux rips right along on a G. The Arreauxbee High lends itself nicely to a baby H. Either way, a tracker would be an outstanding addition. Once you have used a tracker, it will become your best friend.

Jim
 
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I get it but the likelihood is very high that that you wont recover the Arreaux on an H. As for 300$, a T-Loc 4 with recovery is 66$ from Flightsketch with free shipping. Grab a single use 29mm H motor for 40$ and for 100$ your done.

Also, how is the club going to complete an L1/High Power cert for you without a waiver/certificate of authorization in place for High Power?

View attachment 506802
These rules SHOULD say Who regulates high powered rocketry in the USA.
 

jcampb81

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I get it but the likelihood is very high that that you wont recover the Arreaux on an H. As for 300$, a T-Loc 4 with recovery is 66$ from Flightsketch with free shipping. Grab a single use 29mm H motor for 40$ and for 100$ your done.

Also, how is the club going to complete an L1/High Power cert for you without a waiver/certificate of authorization in place for High Power?

View attachment 506802
Okay okay, when you said t-loc 4 I thought you were referring to the Loc-IV.

But as far as the screenshot you posted, the field the club launches at is limited to class 1 rockets. Which is where the <125g propellant weight and <3.3lbs pad weight comes from. I know according to that picture it seems that a class 1 rocket is not a HPR (I don’t know all the particulars) but I have been assured by the club representative that I can certify L1 on a class 1 rocket
 
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It probably took me a full month of legal document reading and talking to people with a lot more experience before I fully understood the nuance of what is allowed and what is not and what is not not allowed.
The is and not are easy. The not not is the nuance that permits diy hybrids in Australia.
The waiver is the document that allows flights into flight classified airspace. Flight classified airspace used to be above a certain level. Now with drone operations pretty much all airspace is classified as operational space. At least here on OZ. I'm not fully aware of the nuance in USA but would expect it to head that way.
Your new mentor...... will be the best person to assist. Did I mention to get a mentor.....
Norm.
 

Scott_650

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Okay okay, when you said t-loc 4 I thought you were referring to the Loc-IV.

But as far as the screenshot you posted, the field the club launches at is limited to class 1 rockets. Which is where the <125g propellant weight and <3.3lbs pad weight comes from. I know according to that picture it seems that a class 1 rocket is not a HPR (I don’t know all the particulars) but I have been assured by the club representative that I can certify L1 on a class 1 rocket

Make sure you keep your POC at the club in the loop on the rocket, motor and recovery method you plan on using - that’s your best path to doing your certification attempt in accordance with the club’s requirements. The club officials will know what you need and give the best insight on they do cert flights.
 
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