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Elapid

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i reeeeeeeeeeaaaallly want a trio of them, if not more...
:D
 

Stones

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I've never seen them in the stores and IIRC, they may not be available.
 

rstaff3

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As far as I know they never existed. The E9 has too low an impulse to be an effective booster. They do sell -P motors, which are great for saucers and the like.
 

rstaff3

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Still, I don't think they were ever sold commercially. They weren't in the estes catalog.
 

Karl

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Hmmmm Estes must've had second thoughts ;)
-Karl
 

Justy

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I was told by a hobby store owner that around this time of year, he gets a lot of people from all over the country asking if he's got E9-0's. He tells them with some authority and experience that they never existed. 9 times out of 10, they're contestants in the Team America Challenge who designed their project in RockSim and assumed that since RockSim will allow you to specify an E9-0 as a motor, it must be available. The saddest ones are when the contestant has already built their rocket for that motor.

I'd say your best substitute is a small timer in the sustainer to airstart the second motor, then you can use an E9 of any delay (or plugged) in the booster, but will an E9 lift itself, a second stage motor, a timer, and a 45 gram 9v battery?
 

solrules

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correct me if I am wrong, but couldn't you just drill out the clay cap, ejection charge, and delay, leaving just the propellant grain? That would make it a E9-0.....of couse it would be very dangerous, and probably against NAR rules.
 

powderburner

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Bingo

plus, you would still have the problem of: the E9 couldn't lift much of anything, certainly not an upper stage full of eggs.

removing the clay cap, ejection material, etc, is a lot more dangerous than you might think
and, even if it was easy, you really don't know where the delay charge ends and the propellant begins (they have very consistent hardness and color)----you could still end up leaving part of the delay in place (bad) or removing part of the propellant grain (also bad)

If you really want a booster in an E9 class, pair up some D12s
You will have more impulse, more peak thrust, and much better availability of the motors?
 

DynaSoar

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According to the NAR listing of engines approved for Team America use as of Jan 1 2004: "the Estes E9-0 has been discontinued by the manufacturer and is dropped." That doesn't mean they're decertified, just not allowed for Team America. If you can find them, they're still certified through 31 December 2005.

A D12-0 won't cut it?
 

Elapid

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looks like there was a german version of that motor also...

i have a bunch of D12-0 but the E-9, though of lower average thrust, has quite a bit more total impulse than the lower class motor.

i saw they were discontinued, so that means someone might have some...

i was toying with the idea of doing an L1 cert on BP motors
i guess i'm just one of those *experimenter* types
*shrugs*

i'd also love to get my grubby little hands on some AT SU E-25 (18mm) motors...
 

Karl

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As far as I know you can only cert if your rocket contains a H-I motor ( Within the specified impulse ) . Drilling the stuff out would be extreemly hard & dangerous job! I dont think they could ignite by friction , but any sparks ect would light the motor backwards :eek: :(
-Karl
 

BlueNinja

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Ohhh yes BP can ignite by friction. I like detonating Black cats with a hammer.

Elapid- A while back Rocketflite made motors called "Silver Streak" that were BP. They had a HUGE trail of BRIGHT sparks (Better than skidmark IMHO) and they were from the F to H range. They probably aren't certed anymore, but Rocketflite is saying they will bring the line back sometime.
 

solrules

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Originally posted by Blue_Ninja_150
Ohhh yes BP can ignite by friction. I like detonating Black cats with a hammer.

Elapid- A while back Rocketflite made motors called "Silver Streak" that were BP. They had a HUGE trail of BRIGHT sparks (Better than skidmark IMHO) and they were from the F to H range. They probably aren't certed anymore, but Rocketflite is saying they will bring the line back sometime.
They were plauged with CATO's because of the long grain length. BP is very brittle in rocket motor form, if you dropped the motor or mishandled it, there was a pretty good chance of it CATOing due to the grain splitting in two. This would create much more burn area, and thus, overpressurize the casing. Sound like the old Estes E's or the D12's? I believe they had the same type of problem.
 

Elapid

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that's ONE criterium.

you might be forgetting about the limit on propellant weight for model rockets. that is 125g. each E motor contains 35g of BP, so it only takes 4 to get into the L1 Zone.

another way would be to exceed the 1500g weight limitation.

there are ways to drill things, but those would be MODIFIED and not NAR-legal, ESPECIALLY for certification purposes. I would NEVER suggest that anyone modify any commercial rocket motor.

i don't want silver streaks, or anything weird...just a simple 95mm E-class BP motor with no delay.
 

rstaff3

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You can certainly cluster small motors to get a rocket into the definition of high power, but you can not L1 cert with it.
 

Stones

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I may be wrong here but, I don't think any cluster, either BP or AP can, as a whole, be used for a cert flight. Or at least, I've never heard of anyone certing with clusters.
 

rstaff3

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In NAR you can use a cluster but one motor has to be an H or an I and you can't exceed 640 NS in total. I forget the Tripoli rules (even though I certed thru them :rolleyes: ) in total but you have to use an H or an I, and IIRC you can't cluster at all.

L1 comments obviously.
 

Elapid

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"...using a motor in that power class..."

so, nobody can legally fly a BP-powered rocket with more than 125g of propellant weight unless they first fly H-powered rockets and get their L1 Cert first.

that seems kind of lame.

poor cluster freaks...you can buy all the motors you like, but you can't fly em all in one bird...legally.

Oh, btw, i have a set of 29mm, 38mm, and 54mm AT RMS hardware, so that's not part of the issue...

since it may help clear up confusion, what i had in mind was staging my TriAgain 3xE9-0 ->3xE9-8

it has too much propellant to be a model rocket by definition.
of course, that assumes that i get it back today on single-stage flights.
:D
 

rstaff3

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You can legally fly such a cluster without a cert, just not at a NAR/Tripoli launch. Of course there may be other regs where you are and you have to consider the FAA rules, etc.

But back to the original question. There are no E9-0s. Try D12-0s in the booster.
 

Elapid

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but the long burn of the E is impressive...
how about the E15 motors i see in the literature?

with 5.6lb of peak thrust, the E9 doesn't seem all that wimpy a motor...for a 24mm BP motor, anyway...
 

Fore Check

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The e9 isn't wimpy at all - your rocket just won't "leap off the pad" like it would if you clustered an appropriate number of D's or C's that would give you the same total impulse. The reason being that the E's impulse is dragged out over that 3 second burn - rather than in a ~1 sec burst in a D or C.

Speaking of "leaping off the pad", I still think that BT5 or BT20 based rockets that use the A3-4T or A10-3T engines jump off quicker than any I can think of.
 

Donaldsrockets

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I love E9's. I use them in my Estes Excectioner, my scratch built 24mm upscale Mosquito and in all my AA 24mm saucers, Scimitar and Stealth. Works very nicely for those kits.

Just don't use one in an Estes Maxi V-2. Too much rocket, too little motor. I found that out the hard way. Fortunately, there was little damage.:D
 

Elapid

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I wish i had not put in thrust rings in my Mosquito3D, the E9s would hang an inch out the back...might not be bad though, i think it has enough nose weight...
 

DynaSoar

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Originally posted by Elapid
i was toying with the idea of doing an L1 cert on BP motors
Can't do it. I know you have to have L1 to fly over a certain amount of newtons and/or fuel, but that doesn't mean you can get certed using them. I raised a ruckus on r.m.r about this until Ray Dunakin explained the why and wherefore.

To get L1, you have to fly at least one H or I motor, no matter what else is involved. ATFE regs for dealers is involved, so that's not likely to change. I don't like it much either (my Night Flight Squadron was built around the idea) but the reasons make sense. I resigned myself to building and flying a standard HPR kit so I could continue developing that project.
 

n3tjm

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E9-0's were never sold. Nobody has them. Estes threw them in to the batch of motors we tested for posible future use... but I do not see that happening... unless the rocket was a min-dia two stager.. the E9-0 does not have enough umph.

so, nobody can legally fly a BP-powered rocket with more than 125g of propellant weight unless they first fly H-powered rockets and get their L1 Cert first.
I do not think that there is a weight limit of what a non-certified person can fly, just a total impulse limit. Nar says you can cluster motors up to 320 n/s... but a single motor can not be larger then 169 n/s. 320 n/s would be approx 320 grams worth of BP, or 160 grams worth of APCP.

The only issue of weight is with FAA.

No-Notice launch - rocket less than 1 lb loaded and ready to fly....

24 hour notice - 125 gram fuel limit - 3.3 lb loaded and ready to fly rocket.

Waiver - No weight limits, the only limit is altitude. So if the club has a waiver... you can cluster up to 10 E9's without being certified... it is under 320 n/s of fuel.
 

Elapid

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i am still getting up to speed on all the rules/regs...i knew there was something about propellant weight...

i dont have a problem with being wrong.
i'm used to it!
;)

here is a shot of two strong and one wimpy E9...i think 6 of em would really make this bird FLY!

 

rstaff3

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Sweet pic. You say one wimpy E9...did it ignite? ignite late?
 

Elapid

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so, i may never really know.
as was pointed out in another thread, the "third" motor might be a reflection of the three strong flames on the launch rod.

the rocket made a pretty sharp turn upstairs, so i think it ignited slowly/late, then it went arrow-straight in the wrong direction...

oh well...
 

rstaff3

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I was wondering since I only saw 2 flames. Was the rod canted in that direction or was there some serious rod whip?
 
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