A stealthy stealth rocket?

[NTP2]

we have all seen rockets that have stealth in the name and are stealthy looking but almost always this is achieved by making a cool looking rocket, then painting it black. I wonder if it would be possible to actually stealth shape a rocket so that it has a smaller radar return by a significant amount. well the answer is yes as long as you know a stealthy shape and now I ask the difficult question is there a way to design a stealth shape without being a multi million dollar military contractor? a bit of googling only turned up the equations and software packages that are $1000 a minute or something. I can tell you now that I'm not doing them by hand and I lack the programming skills to make a computer do it for me. any ideas?

 

[Alan15578]

we have all seen rockets that have stealth in the name and are stealthy looking but almost always this is achieved by making a cool looking rocket, then painting it black. I wonder if it would be possible to actually stealth shape a rocket so that it has a smaller radar return by a significant amount. well the answer is yes as long as you know a stealthy shape and now I ask the difficult question is there a way to design a stealth shape without being a multi million dollar military contractor? a bit of googling only turned up the equations and software packages that are $1000 a minute or something. I can tell you now that I'm not doing them by hand and I lack the programming skills to make a computer do it for me. any ideas?

Find a stealthy rocket that you like and build a scale model of it.

 

[NTP2]

Find a stealthy rocket that you like and build a scale model of it.

I'm not aware of any at real scale, it's just too easy to see on thermals to be worth it from my understanding.

ps there's the AGM-158C LRASM but its TVC

 

[KenECoyote]

I would think that Homeland Security would not like civilians creating rockets that evade detection.

 

[NTP2]

I would think that Homeland Security would not like civilians creating rockets that evade detection.

now Google did help there, it's perfectly legal as long as I have a mode C transponder above 10,000 feet that's aircraft but as long as I keep it under 10,000 it's probably fine.

 

[Antares JS]

Look up the Art Applewhite Stealth. Maybe the Nighthawk-esque geometry would scatter radar a bit better than typical rockets.

 

[Azamiryou]

Aren't most LPR materials transparent in radio wavelengths anyway? Even in HPR, I think if you avoid/minimize metal or CF parts, a rocket wouldn't have much signature.

 

[Antares JS]

Aren't most LPR materials transparent in radio wavelengths anyway? Even in HPR, I think if you avoid/minimize metal or CF parts, a rocket wouldn't have much signature.

That's a good point. Remember the Germans had trouble detecting the British Mosquitos because they were made of wood.

 

[NTP2]

Aren't most LPR materials transparent in radio wavelengths anyway? Even in HPR, I think if you avoid/minimize metal or CF parts, a rocket wouldn't have much signature.

I'll be willing to use CF cloth on it in order to make it be stealthy in the correct way

 

[Art Upton]

A certain past NAR president tried to get his Navy Ship to detect model rockets launched from it on radar.
It didn't work very well.

Another Nerdy Fact, Forest M. Mims , III *
launched model rockets in sports parks in Vietnam, including a Ram Air guided one.
I have the Model Rocket Magazine it was featured in

* Think his MITS Altair 8800 Computer in the 70s. His MITS Model Rocket electronics, and his Radio Shack books
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forrest_Mims

 

[heada]

Shape
Internal Components
Overall Materials

Shape needs to be either sharp edges that reflect RADAR away (F-117) or smooth so nothing reflects (B-2)

Components like metal threaded rods, nuts, wiring, motor case, etc. Will all reflect RADAR in unpredictable patterns and should be either replaced with non-reflecting versions or shielded.

Overall material like fins, body tubes, nosecone, etc. Should either be RADAR transparent or absorb RADAR.

All that said, ATC type RADAR probably doesn't see our rockets much already. The RADAR isn't powerful enough or looking for them. Military RADAR like seen on Aegis equiped destroyers or the array that is part of PATRIOT SAMs could see them easily if they're looking for them.

There is a cardboard drone from AUS that was sent to Ukraine. The PATRIOT systems in country could detect and track them when set to look for them.

 

[Daddyisabar]

I remember when I was a newbie back in the 00's and was at a club launch in the dead of winter. Very cold and clear day with some fresh, dry snow. Not many flyers there, mostly top men and I had noticed three large, black and unmarked semi trucks and trailers parked just below the launch area when I drove in. I asked the Master Jedi RSO and he said there was nothing to see there, just launch some rockets. Being weak minded I complied.

You could hear the generators running as your rocket launched. Lots of different motors flew that day! I was doing my TEAM AMERICA WORLD POLICE routines which mildly annoyed and maybe even slightly amused the RSO, but that was nothing new. Never saw those rigs again and nothing ever said, just the way it should be! AMERICA F#K YEAH!

 

[Daddyisabar]

The new NCR F 117 Nighthawk kit re-release would guarantee you a stealth flight! Get them while you can! Limited run just announced!

 

[KenECoyote]

I've heard that the Estes Mini Mosquito and Swift already employ this technology when used with an A10 motor.

 

[NTP2]

The new NCR F 117 Nighthawk kit re-release would guarantee you a stealth flight! Get them while you can! Limited run just announced!

I considered that but I want a rocket shape like a 4/3fnc if it was made by the skunk works.

 

[KenECoyote]

I considered that but I want a rocket shape like a 4/3fnc if it was made by the skunk works.

A 3/4fnc rocket with facets and painted flat black would be very cool. You can 3D print a faceted nose cone too.

Edit add: One could 3D print the whole thing.

 

[Daddyisabar]

I considered that but I want a rocket shape like a 4/3fnc if it was made by the skunk works.

I don't think Skunk Works does 3-4FNC. They are strictly DARK SIDE oddroc flyers!

 

[Daddyisabar]

A 3/4fnc rocket with facets and painted flat black would be very cool. You can 3D print a faceted nose cone too.

Edit add: One could 3D print the whole thing.

And stubby, asymmetrical fins with widely spaced ram jet pods too?! Dare I say cluster?...

That little cartoon skunk is soooo CUTE!

 

[ReynoldsSlumber]

I take it you're going for a stealth aesthetic rather than actual stealth, and I have only observations rather than actual technical knowledge, but here goes...

• No perpendicular surfaces. If you look closely at a bicycle reflector, it's all internal right-angle corners that reflect light back the way it came, and you don't want that. See how stealth fighters have canted fins, and of course the B-2 doesn't have intersecting surfaces at all, especially not on the underside. So, a simple 4FNC configuration is definitely out. Really the fins shouldn't be perpendicular to the body tube.
• Keep as many edges parallel to each other as you can. Note the planforms of the B-2 and YF-23. That way edge reflections are concentrated in a few vulnerable directions.
• Keep edges sharp and straight. Note how where the F-22's control surfaces meet each other, they smoothly taper to a sharp edge. So sand fin edges sharp.
• For edges that aren't parallel, sawtooth them, aligning the sawtooth edges to the main parallel directions. See the B-2's air intakes.
• Same thing applies to seams, per the F-22's missile bay doors. For example, where the nose cone meets the body tube, sawtooth that.
• Exposed curved edges bad. See the how on the circular edge of F-35's engine exhaust they use a fine sawtooth. So sawtooth the back end of the body tube.
• Alternatively, along edges, use acute wedges (not parallel) of surface texture, to emulate the SR-71's wedges of radar-absorbing material in the edges of its wings.
• Consider not using a cylindrical body tube at all, instead using facets with smooth blends and sharp intersecting edges. See stealth cruise missiles.
• Blend in any protrusions. See the smoothly blended blisters on the F-35.
• Alternatively, use a disco ball strategy like the F-117, which sends small reflections off in all kinds of directions.
• For infrared stealth, could bury the engine exhaust so that the body shields it, like on the B-2 and YF-23.

Funny to look at the old Estes Stealth and see how they got some things right and other things very wrong!

Image: Estes catalog clip

 

[Alan15578]

I'm not aware of any at real scale, it's just too easy to see on thermals to be worth it from my understanding.

ps there's the AGM-158C LRASM but its TVC

Low observable technology was classified as Top Secret in the early to mid 80's. It is probably best not to Google it or discuss it in forums. Think of it like nuclear weapons technology. I am not aware of an example "stealth missile". However, it is a factor in every missile design, at least knowing its RCS. If you are interested in that, you could make a fine career doing it. Just don't expect to learn all about it in an undergrad university course. Expect to learn all the useful stuff behind closed doors with on the job training.

Perhaps the earliest stealth treatment was the use of iron ball paint, hence the black paint, but do not overlook camouflage paint.

 

[NTP2]

Low observable technology was classified as Top Secret in the early to mid 80's. It is probably best not to Google it

too late for both, besides the math equations are well known and the 80s was 30y ago, the Wikipedia.

 

[NTP2]

look what I've found, I have wanted this game for a long time and now I have a reason (excuse), add hock RCS sim!


PS 10:50 is where it starts

pps and yes I know its video game BUT its physics is 100% real...

 

[Alan15578]

too late for both, besides the math equations are well known and the 80s was 30y ago, the Wikipedia.

Thanks for that. The part about metasurfaces was new to me. I've been out of the loop for a long time. I never worked stealth, except for terrain following.

 

[jqavins]

OK, it seems to me that making many-facetted fins would be the hardest part, so don't. Use a ring tail or tube fins. Those can be many-facetted easily, and support pylons for a ring tail are small enough that faceting them would probably be doable. Likewise, you could make a many-facetted nose cone and tube.

CF cloth blocks RF signals, but is it more reflective or dissipative? Either one is bad for your tracker, but dissipative is good for stealth. But-but, it's probably both dissipative and reflective so I would not hazard a guess as to it's effect on RADAR return. I also suspect that paint filled with chopped CF strands would be very dissipative, but that's nothing more than a hunch.

Camouflage would be good for making a missile hard to notice, but is a VERY bad idea for a model that you'd like to get back after you launch it.

 

[NTP2]

OK, it seems to me that making many-facetted fins would be the hardest part, so don't. Use a ring tail or tube fins. Those can be many-facetted easily, and support pylons for a ring tail are small enough that faceting them would probably be doable. Likewise, you could make a many-facetted nose cone and tube.

that's a good idea, CF powder, disparates the cloth should reflect.

 

[Rob Campbell]

Are you going to name it Stealthy McStealth Face?

 

[jqavins]

How about naming it STEALTH?

 

[NTP2]

How about naming it STEALTH?

That’s going to be tricky write on paper, I like @Rob Campbell suggestion.

 

[Lemon Rush]

Funny that only one other person asked what I was thinking: that you're going for aesthetic, not actually stealth? Why would you want to build a model rocket that actually CAN evade radar? That does sound slightly suspicious...just sayin'!

 

[NTP2]

Funny that only one other person asked what I was thinking: that you're going for aesthetic, not actually stealth? Why would you want to build a model rocket that actually CAN evade radar? That does sound slightly suspicious...just sayin'!

For fun and education! I expect to learn a lot more about radar and RF engineering than I do now.