A lvl 2 team rocket questions

Lt72884

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I have some questions about the NAR and tripoli regulations regarding a lvl 2 rocket. in the statement below, what does it mean as "flyer"? is that individual or a team?

The rocket must be built by the flyer. The rocket shall have a display on the exterior identifying the calculated center of pressure. The rocket must be of “conventional rocket design”. “Odd Rockets” including flying pyramids, saucers and flying spools will not be allowed for any certification flight. The rocket may be either a kit or scratch built. Scratch built rockets may contain commercially built components.

Can our team of lvl 1's build a lvl 2 rocket together and launch it for lvl 2 cert? or do we each have to launch our own rocket, then build a lvl 2 together?
If one member is lvl2, can we all work on a lvl 2 rocket together?

the reason i ask is because our final rocket is a team rocket that needs to hit 8500-10000 feet. I told the team trying to get all 5 of us lvl 3 in 8 months is impossible with our assignment deadlines. So we are building a lvl 2 team rocket. I have thiokol/northrup helping with funds so thats a plus.

but i need to know how to do this single rocket as a team since that is the final grade of our project...

thanks

I am also frustrated because the professor said he is lvl 2 and is supposed to be our mentor, but i just found out that he may not be lvl 2 so now im trying to find a new mentor just in case
 

Antares JS

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In the statement below, what does it mean as "flyer"? is that individual or a team?
Individual.

Can our team of lvl 1's build a lvl 2 rocket together and launch it for lvl 2 cert?
As far as I know, the level 2 candidate must build a level 2 rocket himself, or at least be the primary builder.

If one member is lvl2, can we all work on a lvl 2 rocket together?
Yes, anyone can build any rocket they want. Certification only applies to the purchase and handling of motors. You only need one level 2 member to purchase and handle the motor. I built high power rockets as part of a high school team when we were under 18, but we had to turn the finished rockets over to certified Tripoli fliers to launch them for us.

Thinking about it, I'm pretty sure universities are exempt from certification requirements. Someone more knowledgeable than me might want to chime in on it, but you might not need a cert at all if you are acting under the auspices of a university.
 

Lt72884

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Individual.


As far as I know, the level 2 candidate must build a level 2 rocket himself, or at least be the primary builder.


Yes, anyone can build any rocket they want. Certification only applies to the purchase and handling of motors. You only need one level 2 member to purchase and handle the motor. I built high power rockets as part of a high school team when we were under 18, but we had to turn the finished rockets over to certified Tripoli fliers to launch them for us.

Thinking about it, I'm pretty sure universities are exempt from certification requirements. Someone more knowledgeable than me might want to chime in on it, but you might not need a cert at all if you are acting under the auspices of a university.
Thank you very much for this information. How can i validate the section about universiteis being exempt? whom should i contact? NAR, Tripoli?
 

Antares JS

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Thank you very much for this information. How can i validate the section about universiteis being exempt? whom should i contact? NAR, Tripoli?
Thinking about it again, I think that only applies to university activities on university property, which your launch field presumably will not be... @Steve Shannon is probably the one who would know this best...

Regardless, if you can find a level 2 mentor, you can fly a level 2 rocket with him as the flyer of record without any of you being certified, but you will basically need to turn your finished rocket over to your mentor to prep and launch.
 

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NFPA 1127 is the back-end code that controls high power rocketry. It can be viewed on-line for free.

edit: NFPA 1127 (2018 edition) 1.3.3(3) excludes "Colleges or university"

It doesn't say anything related to how/where the college or university is launching.

I second that universities, corporations and government bodies don't have to follow the certification process (but it is highly recommended) For USLI and similar, I think at least 1 flier has to be HPR L2 certified but USLI rules should reflect that.
 
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Lt72884

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just got word that our requiremnts just changed... again. The capstone professors want the rocket to do something rather than launch and come back. They want some sort of sensor thing deployed. I came up with the idea of deploying little sensors to gather data, like the movie twister and they want that or something simular.... so we need to become lvl1,2 and then build a rocket that does this deployment thing all by next may
 

Lt72884

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NFPA 1127 is the back-end code that controls high power rocketry. It can be viewed on-line for free.

edit: NFPA 1127 (2018 edition) 1.3.3(3) excludes "Colleges or university"

It doesn't say anything related to how/where the college or university is launching.

I second that universities, corporations and government bodies don't have to follow the certification process (but it is highly recommended) For USLI and similar, I think at least 1 flier has to be HPR L2 certified but USLI rules should reflect that.
So i can show up to a club launch and just launch a lvl 3 rocket according to this nfpa regulation book? if that is true, bare in mind we are not going to do that. We are almost ready for lvl 2. I would rather be certifide than not

thanks
 
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prfesser

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So i can show up to a club launch and just launch a lvl 3 rocket according to this nfpa regulation book? if that is true, bare in mind we are not going to do that.

thanks
Hardly. Before launching an L3 attempt the individual (no such thing as team certification) must have successfully certified L2. NAR and TRA keep close tabs on who is (and isn't) eligible for certification attempts. One might attempt an M/N/O launch without the prerequisite certification, but the seller of the motor as well as the LCO at the launch will have questions. Not the least of which is showing one's TRA/NAR card which shows the current cert level. AFAIK the motor vendors have lists of members and cert levels for each organization.
 

Steve Shannon

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So i can show up to a club launch and just launch a lvl 3 rocket according to this nfpa regulation book? if that is true, bare in mind we are not going to do that.

Not to worry. Regardless of status as one of the “entities” that are out of scope of NFPA, you would have to follow the rules of whatever club where you want to launch.

The scope exclusions in NFPA simply say that NFPA 1125 or 1127 don’t apply to universities as entities, which may appear to leave the door wide open for whatever universities want to do. That doesn’t mean individual students are excluded and it has absolutely no effect on Tripoli or NAR rules at Tripoli or NAR events.
 

gldknght

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I have some questions about the NAR and tripoli regulations regarding a lvl 2 rocket. in the statement below, what does it mean as "flyer"? is that individual or a team?



I am also frustrated because the professor said he is lvl 2 and is supposed to be our mentor, but i just found out that he may not be lvl 2 so now im trying to find a new mentor just in case
Where are you, which university?
 

Lt72884

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Not to worry. Regardless of status as one of the “entities” that are out of scope of NFPA, you would have to follow the rules of whatever club where you want to launch.

The scope exclusions in NFPA simply say that NFPA 1125 or 1127 don’t apply to universities as entities, which may appear to leave the door wide open for whatever universities want to do. That doesn’t mean individual students are excluded and it has absolutely no effect on Tripoli or NAR rules at Tripoli or NAR events.

Not to worry. Regardless of status as one of the “entities” that are out of scope of NFPA, you would have to follow the rules of whatever club where you want to launch.

The scope exclusions in NFPA simply say that NFPA 1125 or 1127 don’t apply to universities as entities, which may appear to leave the door wide open for whatever universities want to do. That doesn’t mean individual students are excluded and it has absolutely no effect on Tripoli or NAR rules at Tripoli or NAR events.
Thanks for this input. We are lvl 1 next week and hopefully soon be lvl 2, maybe november be lvl 2. I dont want to take shortcuts that could be dangerous.
 

Steve Shannon

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Thanks for this input. We are lvl 1 next week and hopefully soon be lvl 2, maybe november be lvl 2. I dont want to take shortcuts that could be dangerous.
Let me make this very clear. Certification isn’t for teams. There is no team certification. Each individual must build his or her own rocket, without help from the team. Each individual must prepare and fly that rocket individually. Success or failure is as an individual. There’s nothing wrong (in fact it’s a lot of fun) to learn as part of a team, but don’t get sideways of the individual certification process. Doing so could result in being moved back to L0.
 

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Nothing stops you students from building a L3 type of rocket for the competition so long as you have a L3 mentor who is the flyer of record for the flight. I advise that you obtain that mentor ASAP to be a sounding board on your ideas for your competition rocket. Meanwhile, it’s a good idea to obtain your L1 and L2 certain on an individual basis.
 

Off Grid Gecko

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I think I see a bit of confusion here (or perhaps I'm confused)
A university can purchase or construct motors and be in compliance with NFPA 1125 and 1127.
A NAR or TRA member can purchase certified motors within their cert level.

Securing motors and flying are two different things. At a NAR or TRA launch, you can only launch the rocket/motor in compliance with the club rules.

Same way if you want to launch from NASA's proving grounds you need to comply with their rules/policy/paperwork.

Launching and purchasing are two separate things. You can build the L2 rocket as a team and have an L2 member prep and fly the rocket, but that does not earn a cert for the team. If you want a cert, you need to build/fly your own rocket in accordance with the membership rules for both the club hosting the launch AND the certifying authority in charge of the certification you are trying to achieve, which also means passing the RSO bench as they are responsible for launch safety.

Try not to think of the whole thing as a single unit. I think of it (rightly or wrongly) as several interacting pieces to ensure safe launch activities at club sites, which helps us maintain our insurance.
 

Lt72884

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Where are you, which unive

Let me make this very clear. Certification isn’t for teams. There is no team certification. Each individual must build his or her own rocket, without help from the team. Each individual must prepare and fly that rocket individually. Success or failure is as an individual. There’s nothing wrong (in fact it’s a lot of fun) to learn as part of a team, but don’t get sideways of the individual certification process. Doing so could result in being moved back to L0.
correct. we all have our own lvl 1 and 2 rockets right now. We have our H and J motors at the school waiting for us. We have all our sensors, egg finders/timers, arduinos, etc etc for our payload as well.

we are each getting certifide
 

Lt72884

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Nothing stops you students from building a L3 type of rocket for the competition so long as you have a L3 mentor who is the flyer of record for the flight. I advise that you obtain that mentor ASAP to be a sounding board on your ideas for your competition rocket. Meanwhile, it’s a good idea to obtain your L1 and L2 certain on an individual basis.
I have tried to contact the utah rocket club with no response, so we are having a heck of a time finding a lvl 2 or 3 mentor. I know one of my friends in the machine shop at the university is lvl 2 and we had an excellent meeting with him yesterday.

next we, we all become certified with our own individual rockets for lvl 1 and then in november, lvl 2 I personally want to do the tomoahawk that thiokol made because of the history and obviously where i live haha.
 

Steve Shannon

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I have tried to contact the utah rocket club with no response, so we are having a heck of a time finding a lvl 2 or 3 mentor. I know one of my friends in the machine shop at the university is lvl 2 and we had an excellent meeting with him yesterday.

next we, we all become certified with our own individual rockets for lvl 1 and then in november, lvl 2 I personally want to do the tomoahawk that thiokol made because of the history and obviously where i live haha.
I’m not sure when you tried to contact UROC. I know some of them; it’s an absolutely excellent organization run by excellent people, but the last three weeks at least and this coming weekend are full of fairly big launches that attract some of their leaders, especially this coming weekend. UROC sponsors a big launch at Black Rock.
 

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Full disclosure, I’ve never mentored a project like this.
IMO going from level 0 to 10k in 8 months is very ambitious. While you may get some good advice here I think your local mentor(s) will be key to getting this thing home. Good luck, stay safe.
 

Lt72884

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I’m not sure when you tried to contact UROC. I know some of them; it’s an absolutely excellent organization run by excellent people, but the last three weeks at least and this coming weekend are full of fairly big launches that attract some of their leaders, especially this coming weekend. UROC sponsors a big launch at Black Rock.
maybe contacting them via the online forums of their site was not the best way? I posted on the forums of UROC trying to find some contact information for a gentleman named "joe" or anyone that could help me out. I have not heard anything on my post yet.

Maybe there is a better way to contact them?
 

Lt72884

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Full disclosure, I’ve never mentored a project like this.
IMO going from level 0 to 10k in 8 months is very ambitious. While you may get some good advice here I think your local mentor(s) will be key to getting this thing home. Good luck, stay safe.
yup, its an intense project. We have our presentation tomorrow. We have to come up with a deployable payload of some type of sensor array that gathers data. personally i want to deploy a drone of some sort and have it return with something.....
 

Steve Shannon

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maybe contacting them via the online forums of their site was not the best way? I posted on the forums of UROC trying to find some contact information for a gentleman named "joe" or anyone that could help me out. I have not heard anything on my post yet.

Maybe there is a better way to contact them?
Are you members of Tripoli? If so, look on the Tripoli website and contact the Prefect for UROC. His name is Kip Daugardis and he is very knowledgeable.
If you haven’t joined UROC yet, doing so might provide you with email addresses for UROC leadership. A direct email or phone call is what I would recommend.
 

Lt72884

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Are you members of Tripoli? If so, look on the Tripoli website and contact the Prefect for UROC. His name is Kip Daugardis and he is very knowledgeable.
If you haven’t joined UROC yet, doing so might provide you with email addresses for UROC leadership. A direct email or phone call is what I would recommend.
Ok, ill look on tripoli. We have all joined and paid our dues for UROC. I will look for Kips contact info today and see if we can get a mentor asap.

thanks for all this information
 
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