98/17500 or Bigger Case

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DannyB

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Hi all, I'm looking for a 98/17,500, case only. Compatible with Loki hardware. I would be open to new or used depending on price. Please email me at daniel.boudwin@bfblaw.com if you have anything to offer. Thanks!
 
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DannyB

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I would take anything larger than a 48"/17500 as well, as the updated title indicates. Thanks!
 

DannyB

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Bump bump! Still looking...can only find new ones at AMW and $450 is above my budget for a case. Thanks!
 

DannyB

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Thanks all for the help and pointers. I emailed Mike, hopefully he can make it, I’ve heard that he can make anything from more people than I can count. I won’t be using ex for my cert, I only wanted Loki compatible for resale purposes, as that day will eventually come. I don’t really care all that much if it can handle Loki reloads, just a nice plus, I’ll only be using it for ex.
 

djs

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You could just take an old water heater and stick a nozzle on it?
 

markkoelsch

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Why have something like that made and plan on selling it? That is a case you really are not going to grow out of.


Sent from my iPhone using Rocketry Forum
 

sharkbait

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Not sure if Loki still makes 98 loads, I thought he had one or two 12,500 loads at one time
 

dhbarr

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Not sure if Loki still makes 98 loads, I thought he had one or two 12,500 loads at one time
Can still order the N-3800-LW for the 98-12500, but it's a custom order and no hardware in production at this time.
 

DannyB

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Yeah, I wonder why I even care about it being compatible, I really don’t, it was just a minor plus that I shouldn’t have even mentioned. I here ya that I’ll never sell the case, but if I exit the hobby, which everyone seems to do (unless I keep my sons interested) it’ll eventually be sold. I could care less about the value 30 years from now though, so just forget I even mentioned compatibility. Loki seems to be pretty much done with everything 98mm. I had to work with Scott just to get some liner sets ordered (then I discovered ARR :) ). Scott tells me AMW cases are 3.55 and his are 3.50id and that standard hardware won’t work. Seems like a stretch to me over 0.05”, any thoughts?
 

jsdemar

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Yeah, I wonder why I even care about it being compatible, I really don’t, it was just a minor plus that I shouldn’t have even mentioned. I here ya that I’ll never sell the case, but if I exit the hobby, which everyone seems to do (unless I keep my sons interested) it’ll eventually be sold. I could care less about the value 30 years from now though, so just forget I even mentioned compatibility. Loki seems to be pretty much done with everything 98mm. I had to work with Scott just to get some liner sets ordered (then I discovered ARR :) ). Scott tells me AMW cases are 3.55 and his are 3.50id and that standard hardware won’t work. Seems like a stretch to me over 0.05”, any thoughts?
50 thou is a huge difference. Closures are not compatible. AMW is different than CTI&AT (which are the same in 98mm). And general EX cases are standard tubing with a 3.50" ID. It is much easer to get liner/casting sets for 3.50" ID.
 

sharkbait

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50 thou is a huge difference. Closures are not compatible. AMW is different than CTI&AT (which are the same in 98mm). And general EX cases are standard tubing with a 3.50" ID. It is much easer to get liner/casting sets for 3.50" ID.
I will agree with you on incompatible hardware on this one John
 

DannyB

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50 thou is a huge difference. Closures are not compatible. AMW is different than CTI&AT (which are the same in 98mm). And general EX cases are standard tubing with a 3.50" ID. It is much easer to get liner/casting sets for 3.50" ID.
So I spent the past couple days in sorrow after reading your message John D, and then having it backed up by John H. Two heavy hitters say no, so that’s that as far as I’m concerned, I know you guys know your stuff. Thank you both for the definitive answer.
 

DannyB

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Ok I’m at the end of all options. AMW was my only option for vendors but they won’t work. I’ve spoken to every vendor I know and can’t find one. I emailed Mike Fischer but haven’t heard back (I’m hoping it’s bc he’s busy with holiday stuff). Any help locating one would be very much appreciated, I’ll need it for a February launch, maybe even January. Have these always been this hard to find? Will they start showing up again? Thanks for any pointers!
 

sharkbait

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Ok I’m at the end of all options. AMW was my only option for vendors but they won’t work. I’ve spoken to every vendor I know and can’t find one. I emailed Mike Fischer but haven’t heard back (I’m hoping it’s bc he’s busy with holiday stuff). Any help locating one would be very much appreciated, I’ll need it for a February launch, maybe even January. Have these always been this hard to find? Will they start showing up again? Thanks for any pointers!
Try www.the-motorman.net

Harry is a great guy and he has Gorilla 98/17500 complete motors, case, forward, washer, & nozzle
He may also be able to hook you up with liner sets. The Gorilla hardware has the same dimensions as AMW, so if Harry can't get you liner sets send me a PM

If he can't
 

jsdemar

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Try www.the-motorman.net

Harry is a great guy and he has Gorilla 98/17500 complete motors, case, forward, washer, & nozzle
He may also be able to hook you up with liner sets. The Gorilla hardware has the same dimensions as AMW, so if Harry can't get you liner sets send me a PM
The Gorrila 98mm is not the same as AMW 98mm. I talked to Jim Harris about getting liners and they do not fit AMW 3.55" ID. They are 3.50" ID (the original old AMW/Kosdon East size). I have an email somewhere from Jim with actual dimensions. But, this is good news because the 3.50"-compatible liners are easier to find. And Harry Spears, the Motorman, is definitely a great guy.
 

sharkbait

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The Gorrila 98mm is not the same as AMW 98mm. I talked to Jim Harris about getting liners and they do not fit AMW 3.55" ID. They are 3.50" ID (the original old AMW/Kosdon East size). I have an email somewhere from Jim with actual dimensions. But, this is good news because the 3.50"-compatible liners are easier to find. And Harry Spears, the Motorman, is definitely a great guy.
Yes John, should have stated "classic" AMW not the new version
Not sure if Harry has any liner sets or not from Jim, but you are correct, Danny can also get them from ARR or Loki or me if not.

One more shot Danny may be Mostly Missiles, they had 98's but not sure if John B is still producing anything.
 

DannyB

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Ahhh, great to wake up knowing I didn’t hit a dead end. Thank you so much John and John! I’ll put a call into both today. Nice to see suppliers that I never heard of too, they’ve got some cool stuff!
 

jsdemar

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Yes John, should have stated "classic" AMW not the new version
Not sure if Harry has any liner sets or not from Jim, but you are correct, Danny can also get them from ARR or Loki or me if not.
The original Kosdon East AMW case should be considered old and obsolete. The standard AMW dimensions (3.55" ID) have been around much longer and any remaining loads people may have would fit that case size. So, it is probably best to refer to AMW-compatible as the larger ID hardware and liners. Gorilla, Loki, and research hardware is typically all compatible as 3.50" ID.

The 98mm AMW 3.55" ID tubing, though, is by far the highest quality. It is 1/2-tolerance spec'd DOM tubing bought as custom mill run (back in the day). I have some raw tubing that I bought from Paul Robinson in 2007 and I've made bolt-on closure motors from it. Perfect interior finish... I can slide a closure with an o-ring on it all the from one end of the tube to the other without binding. Paul told me that the grain designs were the same between the old and new hardware, but the extra 50 thou in ID allowed for a thicker liner and longer-lasting casings.
 

BBrown

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50 thou is a huge difference. Closures are not compatible. AMW is different than CTI&AT (which are the same in 98mm). And general EX cases are standard tubing with a 3.50" ID. It is much easer to get liner/casting sets for 3.50" ID.
John,
Do you know where to get liner/casting sets for the AMW hardware?
Bob
 

ECayemberg

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John,
Do you know where to get liner/casting sets for the AMW hardware?
Bob
I'm not John, and I don't know where to get 98mm AMW-compatible liners.

BUT

I can say I've burned many 98mm EX loads in both the AMW 11,000 and 17,500 with "standard" Loki/Lyngdal/ARR/whoever liners without an issue. One can wrap the liners for 3.5" ID cases in something if the gap is bothersome.
 

ECayemberg

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Ahhh, great to wake up knowing I didn’t hit a dead end. Thank you so much John and John! I’ll put a call into both today. Nice to see suppliers that I never heard of too, they’ve got some cool stuff!
Danny, I have an AMW 98-17,500 hardware set. Not really looking to sell, but if you get desperate....

I have an AMW N4000 Blue Baboon left for it. That would have to be burned before I potentially sold the hardware, or be included in the sale. Can't have one without the other....

:)
 

rockets

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Danny, I have an AMW 98-17,500 hardware set. Not really looking to sell, but if you get desperate....

I have an AMW N4000 Blue Baboon left for it. That would have to be burned before I potentially sold the hardware, or be included in the sale. Can't have one without the other....

:)
You should come to Ohio to burn that N4000. :)


Thanks,
 

jsdemar

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John,
Do you know where to get liner/casting sets for the AMW hardware?
Bob
No. I have a couple sets left and wish I had more. Someone would have to invest in a minimum run with a tube manufacturer.

If you take a standard 3.50 liner and slip it into an actual 3.55" ID AMW case (not the old 3.50" ID) it will be quite loose. A gap of 0.025" is significant. The liner will crack during the burn.

I've built up liners with kraft paper and sodium silicate as an adhesive. It's a mess and requires sanding to clean it up.
 

BBrown

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No. I have a couple sets left and wish I had more. Someone would have to invest in a minimum run with a tube manufacturer.

If you take a standard 3.50 liner and slip it into an actual 3.55" ID AMW case (not the old 3.50" ID) it will be quite loose. A gap of 0.025" is significant. The liner will crack during the burn.

I've built up liners with kraft paper and sodium silicate as an adhesive. It's a mess and requires sanding to clean it up.
I've built up the liner as well and has worked successfully a few times. It is indeed a mess to get it right!
 

jsdemar

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I've built up the liner as well and has worked successfully a few times. It is indeed a mess to get it right!
If the paper tube guys are reading this thread, maybe we can convince them to do a run with the correct dimensions. I'd buy 10 sets.
 

Loki Research

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I've posted about somewhere before, and emailed the first part to Danny, but I do have convolute would LE grade liners that fit AMW 3.55" hardware. I only have 5 left on hand at this time but I can order more. The catch is they use the same casting tubes that the 3.50"ID Loki hardware uses because they have the same spec ID of 3.343". This way I can use the same casting tubes to keep the cost and storage space down.

This means 2 things.
1) You have a very nice .096" thick liner for much better insulation than the standard 3.50" sized liners, but...
2) Your AMW bulkhead and nozzle won't fit quite as designed.


However.....
I just realized that I have a drawing of an AMW 98mm bulkhead, but it is not an original so I don't if it is 100% accurate. So this is where I need some help to confirm the dimensions. My drawing says the liner shoulder on the bulkhead is 3.231" with .100" of engagement. EDIT- Per John DeMar, the bulkhead/nozzle shoulders are 3.300".

This means that the closures will fit inside the liner sets I have, but they will fit a little loose with a .021" gap. It's nothing a bit of masking tape around the closures won't easily fix.

BTW, my CTI/AT liners I have and have burned with great results in both LE and X grade are .102" thick and go in a thinner walled motor cases, so .096" thick for the thicker walled AMW case should be plenty stout enough.

The AMW LE grade is currently priced at $109/set. Only 5 are in stock at this time and I'd need place holders for 4-5 more before placing another order.

If there are people who still want sets to fit AMW hardware as designed, you're going to need to supply me with the correct dimensional information required to get pricing along with the quantities desired. I can only tell you that if only 20 sets are ordered the casting tubes alone are going to be stupid high.

Email scott( at ) lokiresearch dotcom for serious question/inquiries.
 
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