9-Volt Batteries - Part 1 : The Tear Down - Battery No.1 thru No. 5

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Just FYI - Pouch-type Lithium's are the MOST sensitive to shock induced internal damage.
So if those are the single-cell's you are using, I'm not sure you plan is as solid as you think.
But surely if the altimeter suppliers are selling them for their equipment, they MUST be the best thing to use...
The simple answer, is, there is no simple answer.
:)
 
This is why I prefer to use single cell lithium and inverter voltage converters. I can visually inspect and test all parts. Some systems will run off a single cell.
But that's my choice. You have to make yours. YMMV
The biggest reason I don't like rechargables in the av-bay is because I don't open the av-bay unless I want to download a specific flight profile save on an altimeter. That only happens every few years, so I like having the bay stay sealed for a season or two. I don't want to have to open it after every flight to recharge a battery. That's just me.
 
The biggest reason I don't like rechargables in the av-bay is because I don't open the av-bay unless I want to download a specific flight profile save on an altimeter. That only happens every few years, so I like having the bay stay sealed for a season or two. I don't want to have to open it after every flight to recharge a battery. That's just me.
This exactly.
 
This exactly.
Maybe build your AV bays so they can be more easily accessed. For anything that's large enough to require electronics, in my opinion, they require an inspection before a flight. Make sure there are no ants or spiders. That could be the day before, as you build up the rocket and test everything. If you're not inspecting it, how would you know if the battery was leaking over your electronics?
Risks both ways.
 
I believe lofting ants and spiders is within the rules... :)
Certainly within the rules, but the formic acid ants love to produce will destroy copper tracks. And every spider will kill you here in OZ.. I'm not exaggerating..... :) So, Fred, did you check your AV bay before or after you killed the RSO?

All any of us can do is our best to be aware of any risks and remove/mitigate them. And try to not get the RSO bitten by a spider, especially near a nuclear power plant.
Norm
 
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The problem with a flight-proven battery is that you cannot see internally what damage may have been done to it from the previous flight. Going the other way with a new battery, the manufacturers change both the chemistry and construction without ANY notification to anyone. The only way you know what you have is to buy a bunch of new stock, test one and tear it apart to make sure the correct power will be supplied and the construction will be up to the loading you'll expose it to. You're then faced with your stock running out or reaching end of storage life before you have to do it all over again.
This is why I prefer to use single cell lithium and inverter voltage converters. I can visually inspect and test all parts. Some systems will run off a single cell.
But that's my choice. You have to make yours. YMMV

I took a little time to think about what you wrote.

Basically you have put forth a false narrative on the 9-volt batteries.

You turned a simple battery selection into an unnecessary chore.

The purpose of my testing was to add some clarity to what we think we know about them, improve
our base knowledge, and help people select a proper 9-volt battery.

The beauty of the 9-volt battery is that quality ones are readily available, easy to identify, and easy to use.
Open wrapper, snap in place - good to go.

Everything from that point on is the usual failure point in everyone's electronics. Poor anchorage, poor
wiring, cheap switches, etc. The 9-volt battery is a dependable and maintenance-free little workhorse.

IMG_2825.JPG

I learned long ago from some highly experienced HPR people to always use quality components
and strap everything down if you want your rocket coming back according to your flight plan.
 
Reviving this thread just to share data on one more battery. This thread was enlightening indeed and explained (to me) why recent users of 9V launch controllers were having issues. It also clearly showed that my standard recommendation of Duracells is now no longer valid. It also points to options that won't be as pricey as lithium 9Vs that should work fine in the upcoming Aerotech Phaser launch controller (shown here: #6,918 ) as well as in the older Quest 9V controller, the little orange Estes Astron II controller and in the old Estes Star Wars R2D2 controller.

As I mentioned in post 46, I like to test things, and this led me to try and figure out how I might do some testing along these lines. My favorite test equipment from my electric RC airplane power systems days require Windows 7 (Medusa Research now out of business, no newer drivers/applications) and so aren't as usable as they once were. But I do have one piece of test equipment that can do amps, volts (and a bunch of other electric power system parameters) simultaneously and which doesn't require a computer to be used. This is the Hyperion Emeter II. I figured out a way to test 9V batteries using the Emeter II, a couple of clip leads from my 3-pad launch system, an old Estes 9V controller (in the shape of R2D2) and plenty of Estes Solar Starters (the ones we all love to hate). The Emeter II is limited to 8 samples/second and since it's more intended for testing electric power systems, the current resolution is 0.1A, but it let me do one interesting test and I'll likely do more.

Then, not wanting to buy a pack of eight Amazon Basics 9Vs to play with I went looking at others that were marked "6LR61". That (and a claimed 7-year shelf life) led me to a brand called Voniko (specifically these) which were 4 for $7.

When I got them I used my DVM to do a couple of short-circuit tests as described by @QFactor in the first post - though I just read the current and then the voltage afterward (and failed to write the values down). The currents were in 4.5A range initially, I think. Then I put the same battery in the R2D2 launch controller, replacing the fresh Duracell that was in there, but which wold just barely fire an Estes Solar Starter. The Voniko fired the starter quickly and with much enthusiasm. After doing several of these the current dropped off a bit and the resting voltage of the battery was right at 9V. I puzzled awhile about how I was actually going to hook up the Emeter's micro data unit (which has Anderson Power Poles on its leads) in the circuit. Then I remembered that my 3-pad personal system is all wired with Powerpole connections, including for the clip leads. So I have several sets of wires with micro clips on one end and Powerpoles on the other. I used one of these on the output end of the MDU and clipped the igniter clips from the R2D2 controller to the input lead. This let me get a good set of data for the current but the voltage didn't make sense (I think now I had a polarity issue as the Emeter doesn't read negative voltages).

But what I really wanted was the MDU between the battery and the controller. This required using two of my Powerpole clip leads. One pair of micro clips would then connect the battery to the input side of the MDU and the other pair, on the load side of the MDU, would connect to the battery connector in R2D2. The igniter then was then connected to the R2D2 controller using it's own clips. Using this setup, and the same battery I'd been testing (which was reading just over 9V at rest, compared to 9.69V for the other three from the 4-pack), and getting polarities sorted so that the Emeter was seeing the battery voltage and the LED continuity indicator in R2D2 was working, led me to a data set that I thought was worth sharing.

The Emeter II data is recorded to a log file which is essentially a .csv format, so I put the data into MagicPlot, fussed around and finally got something worth showing.

The test sequence was this: connect everything up with the key out of the controller. Wait ~5s then put the key in. Give a mental countdown from 5 and push the launch button, holding until the igniter burned out. Then wait a few seconds, pull the key (no continuity at this point). Then stop the recording, pull the SD card, come back to this computer and fuss with MagicPlot for too long.

Now, after all these words, we have this:

Emeter log 033 Voniko igniter test.png

As I mentioned the Emeter II's current sensing resolution is 1/10th A, so you can't see arming the controller at all since continuity is shown by a little red LED. And apparently that LED's draw doesn't pull the voltage down enough to show in the data either.

Bear in mind that when this was done the battery had probably had a dozen shorts or igniter firings already on it. AND — there are three sets of flat-jawed micro clips and a total of about 18 feet of small gage wiring (similar to today's Electron Beams) in the circuit. The igniter fired with sufficient vigor I'm sure it would have done its job and lit an Estes motor. The length of the current spike, from pushing the button until the igniter burned out is 1.375s (remember 0.125s sample interval).

I need to do this again while videoing in slow motion to show the igniter firing.

After I've abused this particular battery enough, I'll disassemble it and put up pictures. But I expect, it being marked 6LR61, I know what I'll find.

And then, of course, I could refine my test setup and do several different batteries and maybe also do capacity tests on them. I have a little tester gadget in my Amazon cart that would make such things fairly straightforward. I should also take pictures of the test setup and share those.

More to come, if folks are interested....
 
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I have to say I'm a bit dubious of Aerotech's logic in building a new launch controller around the 9V format... I realize they specify 9V Lithium but even there I would wonder about the differences between brands. I suppose there really isn't a battery type that is foolproof off-the-shelf if you need 5 amps, but still... I wonder how many folks will get those controllers, not realize the "Lithium" part, and then have no success it. We'll see if/when the questions start appearing here.

Maybe we need more tests like this thread for Lithium 9V (both single-use and rechargeable).
 
I realize they specify 9V Lithium but even there I would wonder about the differences between brands
As far as I know, there's only one brand/type widely available to most consumers: Energizer Ultimate Lithium.

EDIT: I'm assuming we're talking primary cells here, not rechargeable, as the picture from post #6918 makes no mention of rechargeable 9V batteries.
 
Reviving this thread just to share data on one more battery. This thread was enlightening indeed and explained (to me) why recent users of 9V launch controllers were having issues. It also clearly showed that my standard recommendation of Duracells is now no longer valid. It also points to options that won't be as pricey as lithium 9Vs that should work fine in the upcoming Aerotech Phaser launch controller (shown here: #6,918 ) as well as in the older Quest 9V controller, the little orange Estes Astron II controller and in the old Estes Star Wars R2D2 controller.

As I mentioned in post 46, I like to test things, and this led me to try and figure out how I might do some testing along these lines. My favorite test equipment from my electric RC airplane power systems days require Windows 7 (Medusa Research now out of business, no newer drivers/applications) and so aren't as usable as they once were. But I do have one piece of test equipment that can do amps, volts (and a bunch of other electric power system parameters) simultaneously and which doesn't require a computer to be used. This is the Hyperion Emeter II. I figured out a way to test 9V batteries using the Emeter II, a couple of clip leads from my 3-pad launch system, an old Estes 9V controller (in the shape of R2D2) and plenty of Estes Solar Starters (the ones we all love to hate). The Emeter II is limited to 8 samples/second and since it's more intended for testing electric power systems, the current resolution is 0.1A, but it let me do one interesting test and I'll likely do more.

Then, not wanting to buy a pack of eight Amazon Basics 9Vs to play with I went looking at others that were marked "6LR61". That (and a claimed 7-year shelf life) led me to a brand called Voniko (specifically these) which were 4 for $7.

When I got them I used my DVM to do a couple of short-circuit tests as described by @QFactor in the first post - though I just read the current and then the voltage afterward (and failed to write the values down). The currents were in 4.5A range initially, I think. Then I put the same battery in the R2D2 launch controller, replacing the fresh Duracell that was in there, but which wold just barely fire an Estes Solar Starter. The Voniko fired the starter quickly and with much enthusiasm. After doing several of these the current dropped off a bit and the resting voltage of the battery was right at 9V. I puzzled awhile about how I was actually going to hook up the Emeter's micro data unit (which has Anderson Power Poles on its leads) in the circuit. Then I remembered that my 3-pad personal system is all wired with Powerpole connections, including for the clip leads. So I have several sets of wires with micro clips on one end and Powerpoles on the other. I used one of these on the output end of the MDU and clipped the igniter clips from the R2D2 controller to the input lead. This let me get a good set of data for the current but the voltage didn't make sense (I think now I had a polarity issue as the Emeter doesn't read negative voltages).

But what I really wanted was the MDU between the battery and the controller. This required using two of my Powerpole clip leads. One pair of micro clips would then connect the battery to the input side of the MDU and the other pair, on the load side of the MDU, would connect to the battery connector in R2D2. The igniter then was then connected to the R2D2 controller using it's own clips. Using this setup, and the same battery I'd been testing (which was reading just over 9V at rest, compared to 9.69V for the other three from the 4-pack), and getting polarities sorted so that the Emeter was seeing the battery voltage and the LED continuity indicator in R2D2 was working, led me to a data set that I thought was worth sharing.

The Emeter II data is recorded to a log file which is essentially a .csv format, so I put the data into MagicPlot, fussed around and finally got something worth showing.

The test sequence was this: connect everything up with the key out of the controller. Wait ~5s then put the key in. Give a mental countdown from 5 and push the launch button, holding until the igniter burned out. Then wait a few seconds, pull the key (no continuity at this point). Then stop the recording, pull the SD card, come back to this computer and fuss with MagicPlot for too long.

Now, after all these words, we have this:

View attachment 611862

As I mentioned the Emeter II's current sensing resolution is 1/10th A, so you can't see arming the controller at all since continuity is shown by a little red LED. And apparently that LED's draw doesn't pull the voltage down enough to show in the data either.

Bear in mind that when this was done the battery had probably had a dozen shorts or igniter firings already on it. AND — there are three sets of flat-jawed micro clips and a total of about 18 feet of small gage wiring (similar to today's Electron Beams) in the circuit. The igniter fired with sufficient vigor I'm sure it would have done its job and lit an Estes motor. The length of the current spike, from pushing the button until the igniter burned out is 1.375s (remember 0.125s sample interval).

I need to do this again while videoing in slow motion to show the igniter firing.

After I've abused this particular battery enough, I'll disassemble it and put up pictures. But I expect, it being marked 6LR61, I know what I'll find.

And then, of course, I could refine my test setup and do several different batteries and maybe also do capacity tests on them. I have a little tester gadget in my Amazon cart that would make such things fairly straightforward. I should also take pictures of the test setup and share those.

More to come, if folks are interested....

At least it doesn't involve airplane rivets... (sorry, I'm like a broken resistor. I couldn't resist.)

Aerotech mentioned needing 5 amps through the leads. I'm seeing about 2.9 so is this an issue?
 
As far as I know, there's only one brand/type widely available to most consumers: Energizer Ultimate Lithium.

EDIT: I'm assuming we're talking primary cells here, not rechargeable, as the picture from post #6918 makes no mention of rechargeable 9V batteries.
I think primary cells are meant, yes.

There are several brands of 9V batteries that claim to be lithium-based on Amazon, including Voniko, Amazon Basics, and Tenergy. They are at least $7 each, which is why a good alkaline option makes sense to me, and is mainly what prompted me to do the tests I have done so far.

There are also a bunch of rechargeable batteries that claim to be lithium based and are rechargeable (often via a USB micro plug) listed on Amazon. These I expect are NOT suitable due to protection circuits and at least one that reviews suggested is a single lithium cell with a voltage up converter in the case. No way something like that is going to source 3A or 5A.

Aerotech mentioned needing 5 amps through the leads. I'm seeing about 2.9 so is this an issue?
As I said in my post, that graph was taken while actually firing one of those straw-colored Estes igniters we all love to hate, and firing it quite convincingly. I’m sure had it been properly installed in an Estes motor, it would have lit just fine.

I’m only speculating here, but I expect Gary is being conservative. What current is needed will certainly depend on what igniter/starter/initiator is on the clips at the time.

Here’s a shot of the kludged test setup I used to generate the graph posted. In it the victim battery is connected, but the key is out and the burnt igniter is still on R2D2‘s clips. It is followed by the Emeter’s own displays of the peak values (read from the saved log file) and what its on-screen graph at the salient point looks like. For everyone’s amusement…

IMG_7328.jpeg

IMG_7329.jpeg IMG_7330.jpeg
 
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I have to say I'm a bit dubious of Aerotech's logic in building a new launch controller around the 9V format... I realize they specify 9V Lithium but even there I would wonder about the differences between brands. I suppose there really isn't a battery type that is foolproof off-the-shelf if you need 5 amps, but still... I wonder how many folks will get those controllers, not realize the "Lithium" part, and then have no success it. We'll see if/when the questions start appearing here.

I absolutely agree with this. I have to say I was more than a little surprised when I looked at the pre-production Phaser Dane Boles had on display at the World Spacemodeling Championships and I found out it was intended for a 9V battery. The revelations in this thread about the current state of Duracell 9Vs just makes problems down the road more likely.

I’m also concerned about that wireless controller (iLaunch) that was just announced that runs on 4 AAs. The Phaser should use 4-6 AAs and the iLaunch should use at least as much stored energy as the very reliable Estes PSII controller (6 C cells), in my opinion, even though that would make both units bigger and probably cost a few cents more each to have made in China.

Maybe we need more tests like this thread for Lithium 9V (both single-use and rechargeable).
I’ve been trying to think of what would be a valid capacity test for igniter/pyro charge usage. Without an elaborate, probably computer-controlled test setup, I don’t know how I’d run an intermittent duty cycle test that would be even semi-realistic. I’m thinking maybe 2A continuous might separate the “probably will work” batteries from the “don’t even put it in your controller or rocket” batteries. But I’m not really sure about that.
 
A few musings on this thread... opinions included.

9V Energizer Ultimate Lithium batteries are nearly $10. That's a lot for one "disposable" battery.

Not opening up your AV bay before every flight to inspect wires, terminal block screws (all you old-school guys use them, I know), battery hold-downs, etc. is like not regularly checking the oil in your car just because you bought the expensive oil. Same result... it will come back and bite you in the butt.

9V alkaline batteries aren't even being used in smoke alarms anymore... the new ones all have non-replaceable lithium batteries built into them. That should tell you something...

LiPo batteries weren't around when most of the old-school altimeters were designed, which is why people got used to using 9V batteries in the first place. Eggtimer altimeters were designed for LiPo's from the start... that's the advantage of being the "new guy" (although we've been doing this for 10 years now).

I have seen 9V batteries come loose from those plastic 9V battery holders in flight. The clip-type pigtails and zip-tying the battery to the sled are a much safer option.

Don't be surprised if in a few years none of the 9V alkaline batteries use the 6xAAAA welded construction in lieu of six pressed cells. There's a reason why Duracell changed... it's cheaper, and 99.99% of consumers won't notice the difference. Sadly, we're the 0.01%.

OK, I'm done.
 
A few musings on this thread... opinions included.

9V Energizer Ultimate Lithium batteries are nearly $10. That's a lot for one "disposable" battery.

Not opening up your AV bay before every flight to inspect wires, terminal block screws (all you old-school guys use them, I know), battery hold-downs, etc. is like not regularly checking the oil in your car just because you bought the expensive oil. Same result... it will come back and bite you in the butt.

9V alkaline batteries aren't even being used in smoke alarms anymore... the new ones all have non-replaceable lithium batteries built into them. That should tell you something...

LiPo batteries weren't around when most of the old-school altimeters were designed, which is why people got used to using 9V batteries in the first place. Eggtimer altimeters were designed for LiPo's from the start... that's the advantage of being the "new guy" (although we've been doing this for 10 years now).

I have seen 9V batteries come loose from those plastic 9V battery holders in flight. The clip-type pigtails and zip-tying the battery to the sled are a much safer option.

Don't be surprised if in a few years none of the 9V alkaline batteries use the 6xAAAA welded construction in lieu of six pressed cells. There's a reason why Duracell changed... it's cheaper, and 99.99% of consumers won't notice the difference. Sadly, we're the 0.01%.

OK, I'm done.
The Amazon 9v batteries worked well but have since moved on to bigger and better batteries, mostly because I got bored with them.

BTW, I sent you (@cerving) an email invoice request last week and waiting. (rgklapp)
 
A few musings on this thread... opinions included.

9V Energizer Ultimate Lithium batteries are nearly $10. That's a lot for one "disposable" battery.

YES IT IS. This is hands down the MOST frustrating part of using 9v for me. I need to know when to replace a 9v in a rocket and if you ask other rocket people you'll get 100 different answers. Its not that I can't afford to replace them every flight its just so...wasteful. WTF am I supposed to do with all these 9v's after a season of flying? Fortunately all my smoke detectors were due for new 9vs recently so that took care of that for now...

Not opening up your AV bay before every flight to inspect wires, terminal block screws (all you old-school guys use them, I know), battery hold-downs, etc. is like not regularly checking the oil in your car just because you bought the expensive oil. Same result... it will come back and bite you in the butt.

9V alkaline batteries aren't even being used in smoke alarms anymore... the new ones all have non-replaceable lithium batteries built into them. That should tell you something...

LiPo batteries weren't around when most of the old-school altimeters were designed, which is why people got used to using 9V batteries in the first place. Eggtimer altimeters were designed for LiPo's from the start... that's the advantage of being the "new guy" (although we've been doing this for 10 years now).

Just want to point out that one of your competitors states their products are specifically optimized for use with 9v batteries.

I have seen 9V batteries come loose from those plastic 9V battery holders in flight. The clip-type pigtails and zip-tying the battery to the sled are a much safer option.

You should see my home-brew battery holders. If a 9v comes loose from one of those there are much bigger issues with the flight lol.

Don't be surprised if in a few years none of the 9V alkaline batteries use the 6xAAAA welded construction in lieu of six pressed cells. There's a reason why Duracell changed... it's cheaper, and 99.99% of consumers won't notice the difference. Sadly, we're the 0.01%.

OK, I'm done.

This is a very interesting post. As annoying as it is to have to pull batteries to charge them I am going to slowly convert all of my avionics to LiPo. I think it's just a much better solution. However, far and away the most aggravating part to LiPo is all the different connectors. FFS is that ever annoying.

I do have a quiestion for the collecttive hive mind...If I have a JST connector on my battery and one coming off of my alt - how do I wire a screw switch between the two so I can arm the alt at the pad?
 
You wire the screw switch in series with your altimeter pigtail... yes, you'll have to cut and solder wires. Some altimeters actually have pads/terminal specifically for a switch... ours generally do not, because either we didn't include them to save space (Quark) or you don't need it because they have an internal switch on the deployment power (Quantum, Proton, Quasar).
 
Just want to point out that one of your competitors states their products are specifically optimized for use with 9v batteries.

That probably means that the deployment circuitry was designed pre-LiPo. With the exception of the Apogee (which is designed for a small 1S LiPo), all of our deployment altimeters use automotive-qualified smart drivers, not just FET's. They will shut off in the event of an overcurrent (> 10A), temperature overload, undervoltage (< 4.5V, this prevents a dead-short from resetting the processor), and they also provide status for open-circuits. Some other vendors put relatively small FET's in the output section, to prevent them from blowing up in the event of an overcurrent load you either have to use a battery that won't fry them (i.e. 9V alkaline) or put a current-limiting resistor between the altimeter and the load. Nobody does the latter... so 9V's it is.
 
That probably means that the deployment circuitry was designed pre-LiPo. With the exception of the Apogee (which is designed for a small 1S LiPo), all of our deployment altimeters use automotive-qualified smart drivers, not just FET's. They will shut off in the event of an overcurrent (> 10A), temperature overload, undervoltage (< 4.5V, this prevents a dead-short from resetting the processor), and they also provide status for open-circuits. Some other vendors put relatively small FET's in the output section, to prevent them from blowing up in the event of an overcurrent load you either have to use a battery that won't fry them (i.e. 9V alkaline) or put a current-limiting resistor between the altimeter and the load. Nobody does the latter... so 9V's it is.
Fully agree. Using the battery choice as a current limiting method is a REALLY stupid design choice to make. Especially when it's sooooo easy to implement electronically..........
 
I have tried LiPo batteries but prefer not having to charge the AvBay batteries. (Charging my on-board camera batteries is enough for me). I use 9 volt Procell intense power "For High Drain Devices" batteries with good success. They are a Alkaline-Manganese Dioxide Battery (Zn / MnO2). They are a Duracell product.

I open and check my AvBay after each flight - wire connections and battery charge. Also check that the batteries are still locked in place correctly.

These ProCell 9v batteries generally read at 9.5 to 9.6 volts when new using a voltmeter; about 9.4 to 9.5 volts with the Stratologger CF read-out prior to launch. When the batteries read below 9.1 volts (i.e. 9.0v or lower) -OR- after 5 flights max, I remove them and use them in non-critical applications (home use / miscl). I've had zero issues with this procedure since 2009.

I do not know what the internal construction is of these batteries and don't see that information on the ProCell website: https://www.procell.com/en-us/ I will cut one open to see.

Stephen on Friday 27 October 2023
 
OK, I’ve found some of my test leads so there won’t be so much thin wire in the circuit and I received my variable constant current load device from Amazon today. So…. I can retest the Voniko alkaline with less extra resistance in the circuit both as I did before (firing Estes starters) and I can do a discharge test to get a capacity reading. For this latter, I think I will use 2A as the load as that is the “all fire” current of the Estes starters/igniters per current instructions. This would cover the handheld 9V launch controller case.

So…..is there any desire for the data, presented in a similar fashion as in post 128 above?

I’ll probably do one of the Voniko batteries and a current-spec Duracell for my own interest. If there is a desire for others that I will have to go buy, I’ll be looking for suggestions. At the moment I’m not curious enough about this to go buy all the ones that @QFactor did. I AM curious enough to probably get one or two lithium-based types, again thinking especially about the upcoming Aerotech Phaser handheld launch controller.

I’ll have to think about how many Solar Starters I can sacrifice to this testing. I do have quite a few I’m sure I can spare.

The Estes data says they have a resistance of just under 0.7 ohms, so I might instead figure out a way to simulate that with power resistors. Then, maybe two-second pulses with some moderate rest time between them to get a sense of how many launches one might get. This would be recorded, at least some of them, with the Emeter II as I did above. I’ll use it also for the capacity tests.

I’ll leave testing appropriate to the deployment charge application to someone who is actually doing that sort of thing.
 
OK, I’ve found some of my test leads so there won’t be so much thin wire in the circuit and I received my variable constant current load device from Amazon today. So…. I can retest the Voniko alkaline with less extra resistance in the circuit both as I did before (firing Estes starters) and I can do a discharge test to get a capacity reading. For this latter, I think I will use 2A as the load as that is the “all fire” current of the Estes starters/igniters per current instructions. This would cover the handheld 9V launch controller case.

So…..is there any desire for the data, presented in a similar fashion as in post 128 above?

I’ll probably do one of the Voniko batteries and a current-spec Duracell for my own interest. If there is a desire for others that I will have to go buy, I’ll be looking for suggestions. At the moment I’m not curious enough about this to go buy all the ones that @QFactor did. I AM curious enough to probably get one or two lithium-based types, again thinking especially about the upcoming Aerotech Phaser handheld launch controller.

I’ll have to think about how many Solar Starters I can sacrifice to this testing. I do have quite a few I’m sure I can spare.

The Estes data says they have a resistance of just under 0.7 ohms, so I might instead figure out a way to simulate that with power resistors. Then, maybe two-second pulses with some moderate rest time between them to get a sense of how many launches one might get. This would be recorded, at least some of them, with the Emeter II as I did above. I’ll use it also for the capacity tests.

I’ll leave testing appropriate to the deployment charge application to someone who is actually doing that sort of thing.
It's great that you and others are prepared to take the time to do this testing and provide the results to all here. It's disheartening that the testing is required on such a regular basis due to the ongoing manufacturing unannounced alterations to the construction and performance of the batteries. For that reason alone, it's difficult to justify using them . What's the performance next week? Who knows...
 
After reading this thread, I recently went looking for Duracell Procell 9V batteries, 6LR61. These are generally not sold at retail, they come from the industrial tool and parts shop. I was expecting to find the Procell orange packaging, instead I found two different varieties. Procell Intense and Procell Constant. Different colors, different labels. Two seemingly different flavors marketed to different applications. Marketing being the key word here. Very important step in extracting maximum revenue from the consumer is to create "value". One way to do that is to 1) Create the [appearance] of a problem, and 2) Offer the consumer the solution.

Product data sheets for the two batteries are attached. Cynicism aside, I'm sure these are both high quality products, but for all practical purposes, but the two versions of the Procell appear to be nearly identical within testing and manufacturing tolerances other than the hip new labeling. Oddly, the Intense actually has marginally more constant current capacity than the Constant...

Remember, if you cannot compete on price or quality, that leaves fraud. Which we shall call marketing....
 

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After reading this thread, I recently went looking for Duracell Procell 9V batteries, 6LR61. These are generally not sold at retail, they come from the industrial tool and parts shop. I was expecting to find the Procell orange packaging, instead I found two different varieties. Procell Intense and Procell Constant. Different colors, different labels. Two seemingly different flavors marketed to different applications. Marketing being the key word here. Very important step in extracting maximum revenue from the consumer is to create "value". One way to do that is to 1) Create the [appearance] of a problem, and 2) Offer the consumer the solution.

Product data sheets for the two batteries are attached. Cynicism aside, I'm sure these are both high quality products, but for all practical purposes, but the two versions of the Procell appear to be nearly identical within testing and manufacturing tolerances other than the hip new labeling. Oddly, the Intense actually has marginally more constant current capacity than the Constant...

Remember, if you cannot compete on price or quality, that leaves fraud. Which we shall call marketing....
They cannot possibly be the same... They used different colour lines for the same testing current in the data sheets and omitted one load... :)
 
After reading this thread, I recently went looking for Duracell Procell 9V batteries, 6LR61. These are generally not sold at retail, they come from the industrial tool and parts shop. I was expecting to find the Procell orange packaging, instead I found two different varieties. Procell Intense and Procell Constant. Different colors, different labels. Two seemingly different flavors marketed to different applications. Marketing being the key word here. Very important step in extracting maximum revenue from the consumer is to create "value". One way to do that is to 1) Create the [appearance] of a problem, and 2) Offer the consumer the solution.

Product data sheets for the two batteries are attached. Cynicism aside, I'm sure these are both high quality products, but for all practical purposes, but the two versions of the Procell appear to be nearly identical within testing and manufacturing tolerances other than the hip new labeling. Oddly, the Intense actually has marginally more constant current capacity than the Constant...

Remember, if you cannot compete on price or quality, that leaves fraud. Which we shall call marketing....
Reminds me of this pharmaceutical case in Australia:
https://www.accc.gov.au/media-relea...on-penalty-for-nurofen-specific-pain-products
TP
 
After reading this thread, I recently went looking for Duracell Procell 9V batteries, 6LR61. These are generally not sold at retail, they come from the industrial tool and parts shop. I was expecting to find the Procell orange packaging, instead I found two different varieties. Procell Intense and Procell Constant. Different colors, different labels. Two seemingly different flavors marketed to different applications. Marketing being the key word here. Very important step in extracting maximum revenue from the consumer is to create "value". One way to do that is to 1) Create the [appearance] of a problem, and 2) Offer the consumer the solution.

Product data sheets for the two batteries are attached. Cynicism aside, I'm sure these are both high quality products, but for all practical purposes, but the two versions of the Procell appear to be nearly identical within testing and manufacturing tolerances other than the hip new labeling. Oddly, the Intense actually has marginally more constant current capacity than the Constant...

Remember, if you cannot compete on price or quality, that leaves fraud. Which we shall call marketing....

I always purchase the Procells through ebay. This allows me to buy them in small quantities, and
at a reasonable price. I have been doing it this way for a number of years and have never gotten
a bad batch. It's important to check the seller's rating of course before making a purchase.

Here's a listing I just pulled off of ebay :

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1959457658...gOkGq/3jrQrbhkIPXdWCNvj3fF|tkp:Bk9SR-rbgIbwYg
 
I have tried LiPo batteries but prefer not having to charge the AvBay batteries. (Charging my on-board camera batteries is enough for me). I use 9 volt Procell intense power "For High Drain Devices" batteries with good success. They are a Alkaline-Manganese Dioxide Battery (Zn / MnO2). They are a Duracell product.

I open and check my AvBay after each flight - wire connections and battery charge. Also check that the batteries are still locked in place correctly.

These ProCell 9v batteries generally read at 9.5 to 9.6 volts when new using a voltmeter; about 9.4 to 9.5 volts with the Stratologger CF read-out prior to launch. When the batteries read below 9.1 volts (i.e. 9.0v or lower) -OR- after 5 flights max, I remove them and use them in non-critical applications (home use / miscl). I've had zero issues with this procedure since 2009.

I do not know what the internal construction is of these batteries and don't see that information on the ProCell website: https://www.procell.com/en-us/ I will cut one open to see.

Stephen on Friday 27 October 2023


Here is the inside of the Procell,

IMG_6440.JPG IMG_6987.JPG
 
Here is a Lipo battery that I came across that safely meets the voltage and amp conditions
for the Stratologger, RRC2 and RRC3 flight computers.

IMG_8345.JPG IMG_8349.JPG

The Blade battery has only seen modest test flights so far. I hope to get in some high G
testing in the late fall; Warp motors and the sorts. That rocket is nearing completion.
The picture shows the sled for that rocket; RRC2+ and RRC2L.

I have not found any other batteries like the Blade. So it's a risk that this will fade into
the sunset like many electrical components. But I do enjoy the "field testing".
 
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