# 6mm Reload composites?;dream or a possibility?

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##### Well-Known Member
I know this sound totally 50 years from now but while I was posting on another thread here I got into a short discusion with someone about the possiblitys of 6mm realoads I have caught news that ***** ***** ********* is develeoping them (it's not displayable since I don't know it firsthand but if you do want to know the manufacturer just pm me; but if you are even viewing this thread there is an exclent chance that you already know) so I was wondering if anyone has gotten any news on the possiblity that some crazy manufacturer has any plans for 6mm reload composites?
Pros:we can finally lift payloads in micromaxxes with FYI is now an offical NAR challange
We can finnally break some clouds with these tiny birds.....
Cons: High loss possiblity, all of you micromaxxers know the feeling, OMG where did my micromaxx go?
Manufacturing them; how on earth would you make somthing like a reload casing in a 6mm size
Assebling them; you have all had the feeling "Whoops I got grease
on the o-rings!!"
Igniting them; don't quote me on this but the fattest q2 iv seen was about 3mm across; although I don't se why I couldn't just use nicrome wire.

Ok so people is this possible or fantsy? Please vote and post

#### ben_ullman

##### Well-Known Member
Green Monkey Aerospaces name can be displayed on TRF, not sure why people have issues with that.

6mm reloads are not that hard. reloads would be a pain to assemble but not that bad.

Ben

#### powderburner

##### Well-Known Member
6mm reloads might not be too bad if you are really into experimenting, and designing/building your own motors, but I just cannot see how something like this could ever be successful on a retail level

People who really like to do it can build their own kit cars, but the percentage of people who do so does not even register on national automobile sales

A good indicator for this motor category might be the 10mm "contest" motors that used to be available a few years back. Go into the NAR records and find out how many were ever used in competition. Go ahead and triple or quadruple that number, to allow for some testing and development of competitive designs. Yes, this approach to calculating the number of motors used cuts out the people who bought a few for fun, or just to say they did, or to stash 'em in a collection. I'll bet the number of 10mm motors actually flown for competition isn't even recognizeable against 300 million BP motors made by our Penrose friends.

MarkII

#### Micromeister

##### Micro Craftman/ClusterNut
TRF Supporter
Could not agree more or put it better then Marks last post! Great post Mark! Absurd is the optimal word.

Micros are just fine with the output power we have now. not to mention they are in keeping with my main goal of lowest possible price per launch.

Their is absolutely nothing that is done in model rocketry that hasn't or can't currently be done with micros with the possible exception of mile high flights... but Altitude is NOT the only reason for flying in the first place.
RC, on board electronics, Staging, clusters and yes ScrapDaddy we already have a Payload designed for our micors that boost just fine on our current BP motors.
I neither need or want AP involved with my Micro models. It's simple not a concern.
By the way, There have already been several successful 6mm AP and Sugar propellant motors experimented with over the past 4 years. But as many have already mentioned the overwelming tech glitches and Igniter Placement limitations have more or less directed those of us looking at them to conclude it's just not worth the hastle.

I'm in favor of looking at longer delay times for our current MMX-II motors i've personally had models tracked and closed over 300feet on the OLD MMX-I motors. While they had a posted 1 sec delay their actual average delay was over 1.07s allowing considerably more coast time then our current .857s delay motors. I've been experimenting with 3 and 4 sec delay upper stage times but they still require added mass or supercaps to power and ignite the upper stage or ejection.
Prehaps a bit longer motor could be designed that would help up the burn time along with extending the delays.
There are TONS of WAY more productive project available in the micro model range then trying to make a reloadable Micro.

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#### green dragon

##### Well-Known Member
13mm single use composite motors (again, not reloadables) would be less of a technical challenge, but even then, where would the market be? Would anyone really want to spend something like $5-$6 for a 13mm C? And, returning to the first topic above, who would pay \$4 for a 6mm A? Is there such a demand for the Aerotech RMS 18/20 motor that people are clamoring for something smaller? You can purchase 13mm hardware from GMA or else make your own, but how many people are actually doing that? Especially since you need to be a member of Tripoli with at least Level 2 certification in order to have sanction to cook up your own propellants and cast your own motors.

MarkII
Well, I htink there is a small market for 13mm composites, moeso then 6mm market - I fondly recall the Apogee B7 composite motors, and although pricey at 5-7.00 , they were nice for the ' had to try a few' factor

personally, I would LOVE to see the AT RMS18 reloads in B-C sizes return, especially the C12 and C4 reloads. but again, most persons flying would rather have single use BP at lower cost.

I do have the Green MOnkey 13 and 18mm hardware, yet to burn any - maybe this summer at a PYRO launch, come on out to one

~ AL

#### Micromeister

##### Micro Craftman/ClusterNut
TRF Supporter
We also fondly remember the Apogee 10.5mm BP, B2-7 and -9 motors as well.

the Problems with AP...is COST pre flight. At least when it comes to Model rocketry!

##### Well-Known Member
Acctually it wouldnt make sence to make a C4 or A C12 as Estes makes quite a few close alternatives, the c6 and the c11 (although that is a 24mm); although it would add a verity to the limited choises we have in the 18mm reloads. But Isnt really cool to think about the miniscule chance that there could be a 6mm reload?

#### MarkII

##### Well-Known Member
We could have more reload options for the RMS 18/20 motor if we would actually buy them. Aerotech did try to offer a broader range; at one time, they produced reloads ranging from B to E for it. But as Bob said, very low sales killed all except the Ds. "Very low sales" means that customers just didn't want those other reloads. The 18mm D motors, in contrast, fill an actual need, which is why they sell in enough quantities to warrant their continued production. Ask yourself: would you actually buy many 18mm composite C6s? And how many people do you suppose would build rockets to fly on 18mm composite E27s? I mean, there is a reason why you don't see many 14" long by 1" diameter MPRs. Think about it.

I'm sure that there have been people who have experimented with creating 6mm composite motors, but I doubt that their creations were capable of doing anything that black powder Micromaxx motors don't already do or couldn't be manufactured to do. When you get down to that scale, I don't think that composite propellant possesses any meaningful advantage over black powder. Current Micromaxx motors already put out a pretty impressive amount of thrust and have decent power for their size and mass. You have to pick one up and hold it in your hand to appreciate how tiny those motors really are. That they can be manufactured at all, with the same set of features and the same (or better) reliability as conventionally-sized black powder motors is truly a miracle itself, one that isn't always fully appreciated. APCP has a much higher specific impulse compared to black powder, but you have to make motors that are a bit bigger than micro-sized before it actually begins to matter.

MarkII

##### Well-Known Member
Well I can see where you are going with the B and C reloads but what was the problem with the E27 reload? It really doesn't have a compeditor in the 18mm range.

Back to the 6mm reloads; what's wrong with making a 10 Inch long reload?; it would give a nice long thrust (with a debatible amount of force) and why couldn't use an end burner to solve the ignition problems?

#### MarkII

##### Well-Known Member
Well I can see where you are going with the B and C reloads but what was the problem with the E27 reload? It really doesn't have a compeditor in the 18mm range.
Duplication would be my guess. Anything that was big enough to fly on an E motor was big enough to launch on a 24mm E. Therefore an E reload for the RMS 18/20 would fill exactly the same niche as the E reloads for the RMS 24/40. If the rocket required an 18mm mount because it was too small for 24mm, then it was also too small for an E motor. I'm sure that there were exceptions, but probably far too few to justify the expense of producing 18mm E reloads.

Are you unable to understand the fact that a company will do nothing but lose money on a product like that if it only sells a half dozen of them over the course of a year? It costs a company significant money to produce such an item; the company has to be able to sell enough of that product to make that money back, along with a little bit of profit. If it can't sell enough of them, it will stop producing them. People didn't buy the 18mm E reload; that's why Aerotech stopped making it.

Back to the 6mm reloads; what's wrong with making a 10 Inch long reload?; it would give a nice long thrust (with a debatible amount of force) and why couldn't use an end burner to solve the ignition problems?
I can guess why no motor manufacturers have made them; any EXers who might be reading this could also give you their reasons for not having done so, too.

MarkII

##### Well-Known Member
Sooo 6mm reloads are not coming soon :eyepop:

#### MarkII

##### Well-Known Member
Sooo 6mm reloads are not coming soon :eyepop:
I think that it is far more likely that we will continue to see further development in the larger diameters, especially 24mm and 29mm. This is where the advantages of APCP really begin to shine, and where one can really start to see savings from using reloadable motors.

MarkII

##### Well-Known Member
I guess areotech cant do Everything:dark:

#### MarkII

##### Well-Known Member
I guess areotech cant do Everything:dark:
Creating a 6mm diameter reloadable motor isn't an unmet need; it's just a stupid idea. :bangpan:

MarkII

toche:blush:

#### dwinings

##### Well-Known Member
I still have one or two 10mm composites (A's) that were made for the US Team at one time, but they're not commercially practical, neither would 6mm ones.

Dan

#### The EGE

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##### Well-Known Member
wait till you use some motors that were made in china.......:dark:

#### MarkII

##### Well-Known Member
wait till you use some motors that were made in china.......:dark:
Which ones? And what should we expect to see when we use them? :confused2:

MarkII

##### Well-Known Member
3) Hardware would be really really expensive to machine in such a tiny size at low production volumes. And it'd be so thin that it'd be easy to break.
First I will not or cannot discuss any of your other points, however,
machining reusable casings would not be a barrier. The majority of
the cost of the current reloadable casing is more attributed to the
anodizing and not the machining. 6mm casings are anything but tiny
by machining standards. There are common CNC machine tools
(Swiss style machines) that 6mm diameters would be considered large.

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#### The EGE

##### Well-Known Member
First I will not or cannot discuss any of your other points, however,
machining reusable casings would not be a barrier. The majority of
the cost of the current reloadable casing is more attributed to the
anodizing and not the machining. 6mm casings are anything but tiny
by machining standards. There are common CNC machine tools
(Swiss style machines) that 6mm diameters would be considered large.
Huh... Things I never knew...

#### jj94

##### Well-Known Member
You could do reloadable 6mm motors just for fun, but I highly doubt seeing it in retail markets. I've seen a website that had a page dedicated to 6mm reloadables. I forgot the website though, because it's been such a long time since I looked at it. I remember the URL having "scott" in it (I think...). I know the website had some stuff with high altitude balloons too.

#### dwinings

##### Well-Known Member
Many FAI folks in Europe use the Czech Delta motors; they're 10.2mm x 34mm A2-7 motors: http://www.cyber-heritage.co.uk/redglare/lili.jpg

Lots of information on all sorts of wild and weird European motors on that page:

http://www.cyber-heritage.co.uk/redglare/
I have some of those Czech motors too, but I'm talking about 10mm composites with Aerotech grains and of American manufacture, made the same way as Aerotech composites of the time, with graphite nozzles. One of them included a 13mm composite C I flew in a 13mm Sandhawk for Scale Altitude.

Dan