4F black powder

[tmacklin]

Maybe the "shortage" of powder and substitutes is a GOOD thing! There are a few non-pyro deployment mechanisms out there, but they're pricey. This will hopefully spur invention and democratization of the technology, bringing the cost down. I, for one, would love to shed the stink and and "danger" of the bp, particularly when flying with my kids.


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Spur invention? Hmmmmm? I love a good challenge. I accept. You want single or dual deploy?

 

[soopirV]

That was easier than I thought! Dual would be the most challenging, and is where I use the most powder...


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[RocketGeekInFL]

Invention has been spurred, John Beans owner of Jolly Logic showed a prototype of a product he is working on that will allow for dual deploy without BP or any sort of ejection charges at NARCON. It looks to be a very viable product, well thought out and well engineered. Can not wait to see this come to market.

 

[tmacklin]

Invention has been spurred, John Beans owner of Jolly Logic showed a prototype of a product he is working on that will allow for dual deploy without BP or any sort of ejection charges at NARCON. It looks to be a very viable product, well thought out and well engineered. Can not wait to see this come to market.

Son of a Beeeeech!!!

 

[soopirV]

And now there's healthy competition!


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[Winston]

Invention has been spurred, John Beans owner of Jolly Logic showed a prototype of a product he is working on that will allow for dual deploy without BP or any sort of ejection charges at NARCON. It looks to be a very viable product, well thought out and well engineered. Can not wait to see this come to market.

Yes, I saw that in his NARCON 2013 YouTube video and am looking forward to it. It's a parachute reefing device that uses a mechanical release link. The Chute Tamer chute reefing device, which is apparently no longer sold, used fishing line which was thermally cut.

 

[Winston]

I've heard quotes of nearly a million dollars to fight that fight. I don't think anyone is looking forward to doing that again.

First, I think that's way too high of an estimate since I doubt either NAR nor Tripoli has that kind of money and, second, I think it wouldn't sound too high to anyone who might face felony charges in the future due to a STUPID regulatory decision. Finally, had that battle not been fought and won, consider the effect of that on this hobby.

 

[RocketGeekInFL]

The Jolly Logic product is going to use a micro servo to release the secondary device. John passed one of these servos around and it is impressive itself.

 

[soopirV]

The eggtimer can handle servo outputs, but I haven't played with them. Not creative enough to come up with a mechanism that's servo-based.


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[tmacklin]

Yes, I saw that in his NARCON 2013 YouTube video and am looking forward to it. It's a parachute reefing device that uses a mechanical release link. The Chute Tamer chute reefing device, which is apparently no longer sold, used fishing line which was thermally cut.

Thanks for the reference to John Beans YouTube video. Very interesting concept but I think it still requires black powder (or a substitute) in the motor for ejection the chute and mechanical release mechanism. All this inventive genius necessitated by the BATFE and their paranoia about the world's oldest explosive. It all boils down to this: How do we get around this stupid regulation?

 

[Ez2cDave]

It all boils down to this: How do we get around this stupid regulation?

CO2 systems . . . Mechanical spring-loaded pistons . . . "Gaseous" Ejection ( propane, ether, etc. ) . . . "Crimson Powder" . . . just "keep on keeping on" . . . or THIS !

Dave F.

 

[Steve Shannon]

Thanks for the reference to John Beans YouTube video. Very interesting concept but I think it still requires black powder (or a substitute) in the motor for ejection the chute and mechanical release mechanism. All this inventive genius necessitated by the BATFE and their paranoia about the world's oldest explosive. It all boils down to this: How do we get around this stupid regulation?

Ted!
How the hell are you?
To get around this would literally take an act of Congress.
Whereas many of the items in the explosives list were placed there by the ATF, the Congress made black powder regulated while carving out the exception for shooters.
We cannot strictly blame ATF for this one.

 

[blackjack2564]

The BP issue arises from time to time, I saved this for when it does.
Pasted from post years ago:

.............................................................

To all reading this:

Be careful how you go about obtaining Black powder at retail centers.
Don't screw it up for the rest of us by saying/doing something stupid!

My local Bass Pro now asks what you want 4 ffff for. [all others. 3fff-2ff don't seem to be an issue]
2 yrs ago some idiot tried to buy 20lbs of BP. Red flags went up immediately. [my local store had this incident]

When asked, the moron said he was making pipe bombs.
They stalled him till FBI got there. He's now in Git Mo bay.
Bass Pro sent notice to all store to inquire about usage! This is straight from store managers mouth. They don't care & don't want headaches involved with it. Too many other items make them way more money!

A simple " I need it for my frizzen pan" for my flintlock pistol will solve the issue. If you don't think you can handle questions then:
"I'm buying it as a birthday present, for my cousin who has a "flintlock".

....................................................................................................................................................................

I posted this long time ago, since then I went to Bass pro last week, they no longer carry BP in any form.

You can choose to be stupid and play the " not in any rule book I can find, so sell it to me for my rocket" or be smart and play the politically correct game. It is happening slowly nation wide, don't let it happen near you.

 

[PedroTheRocketNerd]

You don't have to use black powder. Since BP is regulated in Germany, some people there use nitrocellulose wool, sold as magicians' flash cotton, instead. It produces more gas per weight than BP and burns at a lower temperature, and is not terribly expensive. Also, no HAZMAT shipping. I have not personally used it, but people who have used it swear by it.

 

[Steve Shannon]

You don't have to use black powder. Since BP is regulated in Germany, some people there use nitrocellulose wool, sold as magicians' flash cotton, instead. It produces more gas per weight than BP and burns at a lower temperature, and is not terribly expensive. Also, no HAZMAT shipping. I have not personally used it, but people who have used it swear by it.

Guncotton is on the explosives list in the USA.

 

[PedroTheRocketNerd]

Yes, but only above a certain nitration level (12.6%). Magicians' flash cotton stays below this level, so it is legal to purchase and can be found online at many hobby stores or magicians' supply shops.

 

[Steve Shannon]

Yes, but only above a certain nitration level (12.6%). Magicians' flash cotton stays below this level, so it is legal to purchase and can be found online at many hobby stores or magicians' supply shops.

The ATF explosives list does not include that distinction. Could you please direct me to something that does?

 

[Ez2cDave]

You don't have to use black powder. Since BP is regulated in Germany, some people there use nitrocellulose wool, sold as magicians' flash cotton, instead. It produces more gas per weight than BP and burns at a lower temperature, and is not terribly expensive. Also, no HAZMAT shipping. I have not personally used it, but people who have used it swear by it.

Hmm . . . Interesting !

I wonder how it would work on a large rocket, normally requiring 10gr of FFFFg BP ?

Do its characteristics change if it is compressed or contained, say in an ejection well ?

Dave F.

 

[tim cubbedge]

Hmm . . . Interesting !

I wonder how it would work on a large rocket, normally requiring 10gr of FFFFg BP ?

Do its characteristics change if it is compressed or contained, say in an ejection well ?

Dave F.

I met a guy at Ft. Myers TRA club and he uses it exclusively in large rockets (4" diameter & larger).

 

[Ez2cDave]

I met a guy at Ft. Myers TRA club and he uses it exclusively in large rockets (4" diameter & larger).

Do you have any contact info for him ?

Dave F.

 

[tim cubbedge]

Do you have any contact info for him ?

Dave F.

No, sorry. He hasn't been flying lately. He was pretty old. Never got his name but we talked a lot about using it. He really liked it because there was no clean up like BP.

 

[PedroTheRocketNerd]

The ATF explosives list does not include that distinction. Could you please direct me to something that does?

https://www.ammoland.com/2016/08/at...e-materials-under-federal-laws/#axzz65wd1mqbc
This article discusses what the ATF defines nitrocellulose explosive as.

 

[Ez2cDave]

https://www.ammoland.com/2016/08/at...e-materials-under-federal-laws/#axzz65wd1mqbc
This article discusses what the ATF defines nitrocellulose explosive as.

QUOTE :

"Washington, DC -(AmmoLand.com)- In an Explosives Industry Newsletter issued in June 2016, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (“ATF”) reclassified wetted nitrocellulose [also known as flash paper, flash cotton, guncotton, and flash string] containing greater than 12.6 percent nitrogen as a high explosive under the federal explosives laws."

END QUOTE :

"Substantiated" !

Dave F.

 

[Steve Shannon]

https://www.ammoland.com/2016/08/at...e-materials-under-federal-laws/#axzz65wd1mqbc
This article discusses what the ATF defines nitrocellulose explosive as.

Thanks! One of the ways we can misinterpret the explosive list is to conflate different materials.
“Nitrocellulose explosive” is on the list. The inclusion of the word explosive means that there might be products that include nitrocellulose that are not considered explosive and the article you linked clearly shows that ATF draws the line. It’s also important that it’s a high explosive.
But guncotton is listed by itself without the word “explosive” and in my very limited experience guncotton is more highly nitrated. It’s also somewhat dangerous to handle unless kept wetted. I’m not sure how a person could efficiently use it for ejection. Do you dry it on-site?
When I was first allowed hands-on experience with guncotton thirteen or fourteen years ago I thought it would be good for ejection. I’m just not sure of the legal issues or the technical issues.
Thanks again for the information!

 

[PedroTheRocketNerd]

Thanks! One of the ways we can misinterpret the explosive list is to conflate different materials.
“Nitrocellulose explosive” is on the list. The inclusion of the word explosive means that there might be products that include nitrocellulose that are not considered explosive and the article you linked clearly shows that ATF draws the line. It’s also important that it’s a high explosive.
But guncotton is listed by itself without the word “explosive” and in my very limited experience guncotton is more highly nitrated. It’s also somewhat dangerous to handle unless kept wetted. I’m not sure how a person could efficiently use it for ejection. Do you dry it on-site?
When I was first allowed hands-on experience with guncotton thirteen or fourteen years ago I thought it would be good for ejection. I’m just not sure of the legal issues or the technical issues.
Thanks again for the information!

As I said, I have not used it personally, so I don't know specifics of how it is used. This is the thread where I heard about its use.
https://www.rocketryforum.com/threa...lternatives-to-bp-for-ejection-charges.64061/

 

[BeyondEarth]

And yet there are BP charges available for purchase:
https://www.buyrocketmotors.com/ejection-charge-kit-12-pack/
Is there an exemption for this or how do they do it?

With regards to the Jolly Logic project, I believe that he is advocating a very inexpensive electronic solution, and not using BP at all anymore.

 

[Steve Shannon]

And yet there are BP charges available for purchase:
https://www.buyrocketmotors.com/ejection-charge-kit-12-pack/
Is there an exemption for this or how do they do it?

With regards to the Jolly Logic project, I believe that he is advocating a very inexpensive electronic solution, and not using BP at all anymore.

My understanding is that they’re exempt when included with rocket motors or as replacements. If it’s confusing to you, you’re not alone.

 

[Steve Vise]

4F is to prime the flashpan. You wouldn't use it in the firearm itself. Another reason it's hard to find.... everyone shoot caps now. Flintlock are much less popular.



Not choosey. It's simply illegal to purchase, own or use blackpowder without the proper paperwork/license/whatever for rocketry. You can't sell, own or store it otherwise, unless it's for use in firearms. It's why I laugh when people say "just carry a muzzleloader" That's useless. As soon as it goes into a rocket...the line is crossed.

In most states in the United States, it is not illegal to buy blackpowder to use in the manufacture of rocket engines. If it were, Vern Estes would have been arrested and shut down years ago ! When I go in to buy blackpowder, I don't usually offer any information, and rarely even get asked about my weapons. However, when asked about my firearms, I reply, "I'm looking to buy a 1859 replica Sharps Carbine, and the fellow that's selling it told me I had to buy my own powder if I wanted to test fire it, and learn how to use it. I'm new to muzzle loading. He told me to get some 3F - in your opinion, is this the best powder for this weapon? How many shots can I get with one pound of black powder?" Now, you are off to the races, because you are talking the salesman's language , and he knows you are a newbie and doesn't expect you to know everything about muzzleloaders!

But, getting back to your assertion that buying black powder for "other than firearms" is illegal - to sum up, IN MOST STATES IN THE USA it isn't illegal to buy for non-fireamrs use , doesn't require permits or a license, and is backed up by the U.S. Constitution in most non-commie states.

However, , if you are in another country, such as England, I have no idea what their laws are, and may very well be illegal.

So, if you live in a 2A State in the USA, and, if you don't want to feel like you are not telling the full truth - buy yourself a muzzle loader ! It's fun !

 

[Jim Hinton]

Hi Folks;

If you are in a situation where you are buying 4F black powder and someone wants to know what you are using it for, tell them it's for your .31 cal Remington pocket revolver. Small pistols are the main consumer of FFFFg.

Jim

 

[manixFan]

In most states in the United States, it is not illegal to buy blackpowder to use in the manufacture of rocket engines. If it were, Vern Estes would have been arrested and shut down years ago ! When I go in to buy blackpowder,...<snipped>...
But, getting back to your assertion that buying black powder for "other than firearms" is illegal - to sum up, IN MOST STATES IN THE USA it isn't illegal to buy for non-fireamrs use , doesn't require permits or a license, and is backed up by the U.S. Constitution in most non-commie states....<snipped>...

There is such a thing as a Manufacturer's explosives permit, which is what Estes is required to have in order to legally manufacture with black powder. So, no, he would not have been shut down years ago as long as Estes complied with the law regarding manufacturing with BP.

State's can't overrule federal law when it comes to certain federal statues - otherwise, why are automatic weapons controlled by federal law in all 50 states? Federal law is very clear about explosives and that law supersedes state laws. Your assertion that it is legal 'in most states' to buy black powder contrary to federal law is simply wrong, and it's legally dangerous to assume otherwise. Here is a sample quote regarding the ATF and explosives: "The ATF is the chief enforcer of explosives laws and regulations in the United States"

And, just to be clear, the BP exemption is only for its use, so using it for anything else other than what is specifically allowed, is a violation of the law. To claim otherwise is simply wrong.

I'm not advocating one side or the other here, just stating facts based on law.


Tony