# 38mm CTI vs Loki

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#### EXPjawa

##### Well-Known Member
I recently completed a MAC Performance Scorpion (SD), which means that I need to consider a 38mm reload system. For the time being, I can fly on H & I sized 29mm motors with an adapter, but at some point I'll want to buy into 38mm hardware. Especially since I can foresee building another MAC 3" kit this next year.

Up till now, I've only used CTI reload hardware, and there is a lot of appeal to staying with CTI. I appreciate the clean, easy set up, and I already have the delay grain tool. On the other hand, the recent shortages of CTI reloads has given me pause. We all hope, of course, that its temporary - but it has made buying a lot of preferred loads onsite more difficult this past season. The Loki reloads' lack of hazmat (at least in the sizes I'd buy) is also appealing, since I don't have to pick from what the onsite vendor has. However, I don't know enough about how Loki hardware is set up to gauge the differences.

So, can someone walk me though the pros/cons of CTI vs Loki in the 38mm size? FWIW, I'm just L1 and don't anticipate moving up any time soon, so I's the limit for me...

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#### djs

##### Well-Known Member
I've flown both, although definitely the "volume" preference is towards CTI. For me, I like to decide on the field what I want to fly, so I tend to go with what my onsite vendor is selling (also to make sure his business is supported). If you're looking for something "different", then Loki is a good option. While it's a little more complex than the CTI reloads, I would say it's less fiddly (at least to me) than AT loads, which I also fly.

#### Danh

##### Well-Known Member
I would buy Loki now since you can buy reloads now and then in the future when cti gets back on their feet buy a 38 starter set .

#### sharkbait

##### Well-Known Member
I would buy Loki now since you can buy reloads now and then in the future when cti gets back on their feet buy a 38 starter set .
Spot on.

You can also fly some AeroTech DMS motors if you want, no hardware required

#### MikeyDSlagle

##### Well-Known Member
I'll go ahead and do Aerotech as well. I have only flown AT but from my research and discussions I have learned a few things. I'm sure I will get something wrong, feel free to correct me.

Loki reloads are generally cheaper than CTI and Aerotech (AT). But seems like you can find more sales on AT.
CTI and AT have more dealers than Loki, so you have a better chance of having an onsite vendor for those two.
CTI generally has more offerings per case than any of the other, with perhaps the exception of the AT 38/360 case, it has H's and I's in most of their propellants. Next would be AT, then Loki.
Loki reloads below 740 ship HAZMAT free, except for the I430 Blue in the 38-480.
All CTI loads ship with HAZMAT.
AT has 3(?) 38mm loads that ship HAZMAT free.
Motor wise, AT is the most expensive per (complete) motor, then Loki, then CTI. But you can buy 1 set of closures for AT and multiple cases that share those closures.
Loki nozzles will eventually wear out and have to be replaced, so I have been told. You get a nozzle per motor, whereas with AT and CTI you get a nozzle with every reload.
Loki doesn't come with starters/lighters. So that adds to their price.
Loki and CTI use the same adjustment tool.
AT and CTI uses a spacer system to fly multiple size loads in one case, Loki does not.
Loki requires tools to assemble.
Loki has no black smokies.
AT is the only one that offers a Green in G,H,I loads.

So...
CTI -
cheap cases
more variey of loads per case
hazmat
loads are getting scarce
toolless

Loki -
somewhat pricey cases
not many loads per case
no hazmat
not many vendors
requires pliers
no starter included
consumable nozzle
can't buy in California?

Like I say, I have only flown Aerotech. All my hardware except the 29/40-120 I bought used from folks on here for less than half price. I do have a CTI Pro38 1G that I have never flown. No reason to fly it when a larger AT load costs less. I have 3 AT 38mm cases but only one set of closures. So I have lots of 38mm options, but have to go through the whole song and dance of reloading. I have never flown Loki but I am itching to try. If I would quit blowing money on altimeters and kits I could buy me a Loki motor. The no HAZMAT is what is drawing me to them, but the limited number of loads per case is what gives me pause. We can't fly sparkies at our field, so that limits the motors I can use - in all of my cases. AT is not difficult to assemble. Read the instructions as you go and there's nothing to it. By my third one, I didn't even read the assembly instructions, just laid the parts out where they go. But you are not interested in AT...

I would suggest go with Loki. Decent priced loads with cheap shipping. Buy you a 38/240 motor and try it out. If you don't like it, it will sale scary fast here. Heck, send me a PM and I'll buy it from you. Knock 10 or 15 bucks off and free shipping and I will send you the money and toss in my unused Pro38 1G case as well. :smile:

Branch out to Aerotech with the 38/360 case and a spacer system and you'll have 19 loads to choose from, readily available loads.

Hope that helps,

Mikey D

#### Handeman

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
I started with AT hardware up through 54/1706 because CTI wasn't available when I started buying it. I've stuck with it because the reloads are cheaper and after you've done a few AT loads, they really are pretty quick and simple. Drilling delays is the hardest part and you have to do that with any of them. The snap ring cases are like AT, they get quick and easy once you've done a few of them. As for the nozzles, they do erode a little over time, but that just gives you slightly less Ns and altitude. It isn't like you have to replace them if you're willing to accept a little less performance.

As for reliability, I think they are all about the same. There is always the chance of user errors that will cause a problem, but can happen on all of them, and believe me, CTI isn't exempt from that, especially in 38mm.

I would say, check with the vendor at your local field and get whatever he stocks the most of. You can mail order your motors, but when you happen upon that perfect windless day and want to fly something you don't have, you want to be able to get it on-site. That also applies to those bad windy days when you need to keep it low. If you don't have a small enough motor, the vendor can save your day for you.

#### EXPjawa

##### Well-Known Member
Thanks, all, for the input. For the moment, I decided to take advantage of Wildman's sale and purchased a 4 grain CTI casing and two spacers. This will allow me to use all of the H reloads, and the majority of the I's if I choose to. It won't allow me to use single-grain motors, but I can't see the use of a 38mm G-motor. There are a handful of I motors that I'd need a 5-grain case for, but I can deal with that later. This is enough to get me started, and I can expand from there as needed...

#### DGBrown

##### Well-Known Member
If you want to try out Loki, I have both the 240 and 480 cases. I go to most of the launches in Potter, just shoot me a pm ahead of time.

#### Loki Research

##### Motor Manufacturer
I haven't hear anyone mention performance yet. The USPS shipable 38's from Loki Research typically always offer the higher thrust at ignition (when you need it the most) than the CTI or AT counterparts. Rockets fly straighter and come back closer to home more often then not when they launch strait up with plenty of thrust. If your fleet consists of a lot of fiberglass air-frames, you would be wise to consider the performance advantage of these Loki motors.

Example...
Loki I-405-LW $40 CTI I-540 WT$56

Having enough propellant flavors is good, but having a Baskin Robins selection is more often just a lot of expensive "fluff" for dealers. How many of you regularly buy more than 2 different ice cream flavors for the freezer at home??? Ehhh??? Loki Research offers five excellent motor selections in every 38mm case size except for the 38/740, for which there are four excellent selections.

#### MaxQ

##### Tripoli 2747
As for reliability, I think they are all about the same. There is always the chance of user errors that will cause a problem, but can happen on all of them, and believe me, CTI isn't exempt from that, especially in 38mm..
I can vouch for that...(my Raptor at a Red Glare). LOL :lol:

#### blackbrandt

##### That Darn College Student
I gotta put another plug in here for Scott. Not only is he one of the nicest guys I know, but he makes some of the coolest motors out there. How many other vendors have 38mm K motors? (I'll be flying one at LDRS). I got my cases on a special he was having one time. If anyone here is on the fence of whether or not to get Loki, go for it. You won't regret it.

Can't wait to do my L2 on a Loki Sparky

#### BDB

##### Absent Minded Professor
I have only flown HPR for one year, and I own both CTI and Loki cases. I only fly the Loki no-hazmat loads for now, and I love them. I fly CTI for larger motors since I can get them from my onsite vendor, but I'll probably invest in some 54 mm and/or 76 mm Loki hardware in 2017. I love Loki, but I wish they still had 29 mm reloads, since that is the size that fly best on our small field. I also wish Loki had a spacer system like AT and CTI. I own both the 240 Ns and 480 Ns cases; all of the loads for them are great, but it would have been nice to only have to buy one case to fly all of them.

#### djs

##### Well-Known Member
Can't wait to do my L2 on a Loki Sparky
Why not do the L2 on the 38mm K?

#### djs

##### Well-Known Member
Better pictures.
maybe- but the video will be cooler!

here's my wildman vindicator jr. on a K1127:

#### Dwatkins

##### Well-Known Member
maybe- but the video will be cooler!

here's my wildman vindicator jr. on a K1127:
Yep! Just love my Wildman Jr on the k1127! Right around 12,000' every time. One of my all time favorites to fly.

#### DavidMcCann

##### Well-Known Member
Sorry I jumped in late here.

I've got 38/120 and 1200 cases. I have 480 and 740s I just need to grab nozzles for, which should happen before next year.

If you want to "dip your toe", you're welcome to borrow any of my Loki cases.

The fact you can ship an I405 without hazmat is just awesome. Also Teddy swings by often enough to grab anything that may be hazmat.

They put together easy enough, and cleaning isn't difficult. Get polished nozzles and the slag typically pops off. The last two K1127s I flew when I took the nozzle out, a quarter sized slag just dropped off.

#### DavidMcCann

##### Well-Known Member
here's my wildman vindicator jr. on a K1127:

I know I know.... no L2.....but you could cert at 10K pretty easy

Zoom zoom-

#### mrwalsh85

##### Well-Known Member
Just saw this... Loki is awesome. I'm guilty of jumping in on Black ___Day sales, but I bought a M3464 and 75/8000 case. WELL WORTH EVERY PENNY.

I think that if you want to push the envelope, Loki is the way to go. How many other Mfr's have a M motor in 54mm? How about a K in 38mm? Scott isn't afraid to push the envelope, and it shows. I am anxiously awaiting the next 75/8000 load to be certified... mmm...

#### EXPjawa

##### Well-Known Member
It's less about pushing the envelope to me and more about the prospect of having a reliable source of reloads. Shipping without hazmat for a bunch of them is an added bonus. Still, the performance is appealing; I've just added the Loki 38mm motor files to Rocksim so I can see how they compare. Either way, I'd need to get some form of tracker to do any kind of envelope pushing.

Sorry I jumped in late here.

I've got 38/120 and 1200 cases. I have 480 and 740s I just need to grab nozzles for, which should happen before next year.

If you want to "dip your toe", you're welcome to borrow any of my Loki cases.

The fact you can ship an I405 without hazmat is just awesome. Also Teddy swings by often enough to grab anything that may be hazmat.

They put together easy enough, and cleaning isn't difficult. Get polished nozzles and the slag typically pops off. The last two K1127s I flew when I took the nozzle out, a quarter sized slag just dropped off.
Thanks for the offer Dave, I'll keep that in mind. The 480 case is probably what I'd be most interested in, since I will have the CTI 4-grain case for H and some I-size loads. For me, this would be for getting into bigger I's, in the upper end of what I can do as L1. At least once I have a tracker. Until then, I'll have to stick with smaller reloads that I can track visually...