29mm Estes Phoenix Build-CTI G68 Power

[CORZERO]

Having been out of the rocket game for 20 years, the recent completion of an Estes Black Brant II for sentimental reasons has had me spending more time recently on TRF forums while at work than time spent on actual work itself (please don't tell my boss).

Horrible video, but below is the finished BBII. I had no intention of ever flying this unit, and therefore didn't even install launch lugs to the static display. Again, Sorry about the glare in the video. My goal was to capture the sheen of the urethane automotive clear coat I applied.

[video=youtube;DooW-d3i2MI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DooW-d3i2MI[/video]

Moving on, below is my first ever vertical project:



Old bird!

Time to build another. Purchased on Ebay after several months of watching for this DC'd model. Parts layout upon receipt of the model.




The majority of the stock components will be replaced with aftermarket parts. Initially, my intent for this kit was to go all out stock and just do a nice job on another static display, but then I found all of the cool stuff you TRF forum guys have posted over the years and following suit commenced to acquire parts for a kit that hopefully will prove not only to deliver an eventful launch under CTI G68 power, but also use as a learning exercise utilizing MPR/HPR skills to assemble.

Parts list:

1) Estes Phoenix OOP 1380 kit
2) CTI Pro29 kit
3) 1/8 inch plywood stock for TTW fins
4) 29mm motor mount kit
5) Top Flight 36" ripstop nylon parachute
6) Ten feet 1" nylon webbing
7) Half inch kevlar tubing
8) 6 inch coupler from Apogee Components


Being brand new to the forum, I have learned an incredible amount from the TRF community over the last few months. Thanks! I am by no means a rocket scientist like some of the members, but do share an enthusiasm just the same.

On to the build!

Step one:

Measurements/math.



Planning phase included lots of paperless brainstorming. I wanted to go through the wall and up on the power for this build. This meant cutting my own fins out of the 1/8th inch plywood stock I purchased from the hobby store. Cutting all the lumber for this thing with a razor knife was a pain in the ass, but the cuts turned out well. I had no luck keeping a straight line with a jig saw. Of course tabs were needed to go TTW. Stock fins on left. Freshly cut wood below:

 

[TopRamen]

Any updates???

 

[Beargrease]

I've been to this rodeo.
This is a pretty high drag unit so fly on a calm day with a conservative delay.
Best of luck.

 

[CORZERO]

Any updates???

Wow, a response!

Ill be honest, I submitted the first post to my thread and had a loading issue with my browser. I wasnt aurr if the mod had received it or approved it as i could find my thread nowhere on the forum after running multiple searches. Sorry about the delay, but i thought i had lost the entire post! I am a bit further along in the build process but have been documenting as i go anyways. I will work on a thorough update with photos. Thabks for tuning in!

 

[CORZERO]

I've been to this rodeo.
This is a pretty high drag unit so fly on a calm day with a conservative delay.
Best of luck.

Thanks for the advice. I plan on launching in perfect conditions. Any specs/flight info regarding your model and experience with this kit?

 

[skip_dye]

Thanks for the advice. I plan on launching in perfect conditions. Any specs/flight info regarding your model and experience with this kit?

I noticed you are missing something very important from your parts list . . . lead. You are probably going to need to add nose weight to fly 29mm on this (at least I did and I stayed with the surface mount balsa fins).

Mine flyies great on F, G, and H motors.


Alan

 

[TopRamen]

I noticed you are missing something very important from your parts list . . . lead. You are probably going to need to add nose weight to fly 29mm on this (at least I did and I stayed with the surface mount balsa fins).

Mine flyies great on F, G, and H motors.


Right! This model is notorious for needing some nose weight even when you don't updog it to 29mm.
My favorite Youtube video is of one of these that basically turns into a glider as it nears apogee and makes a really great glider before it crashes.
Infact, everytime I think of that video I go find it and post it.
Definitely going to need to bring that CG where it has to be with that high CP.

[video=youtube;58RdTBpLCGo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58RdTBpLCGo[/video]

 

[CORZERO]

Props to the editor of that video, it was quite dramatic and well edited! Very entertaining. Thank you for the information! I have considered the physics of flight characteristics for this build. I have seen the video you posted on this thread in the past, and I vividly remember my first phoenix build (at 11 years old) having a near-exact flight path! First flight was on a D12-5 and the rocket went horizontal during the delay and came too close to the ground for comfort before motor ejection. I have vowed to not allow this to be the case with this build! I endeavor to have picture-perfect vertical flights and soft, relatively close-to-pad landings.

To accomplish this, I have considered these items:

1) CP and CG.
View attachment 259718
As seen above, RockSim shows CG for the stock model to be almost several calibers above the CP. This however, will not be the case with my build using the materials and modification techniques that I am. I will have to wait until this build is in clear-coat in order to get a final weight to determine the nose weight necessary to bring the CG forward of the CP to a stable caliber, a gap that will steadily close as I continue to assemble parts. This brings me to my next idea:

2) Correcting the CG/CP caliber to a stable solution:
View attachment 259719
The above is an example of my solution to open the CG/CP gap. I will affix a long-stem eye-bolt to the base of the nose cone and utilize galvanized or SS 1.5" washers to add weight to the nose of the vehicle. I am interested in this method as it affords me the ability to add or remove washers to fine-tune the balance and stability of the vehicle for different motor sizes. This may seem excessive and unnecessary, but again, I am attempting to apply any and all methods and theory to this build as a learning experience. Anyone willing to chime in on balance or have knowledge of stability related to caliber please do so.

3) Propulsion:

No whimpy D-12 motors here! These motors were what I had determined would provide enough thrust to my model once complete by the most scientific method of calculation my intellect would allow; a guess. I read the specs on the motors referencing several sources such as rocketreviews.com, thrustcurve.com and another which I can't remember off the top of my head at the moment which provided maximum amount of vehicle weight a given motor would lift. I am not a physicist and have a hard time grasping the concepts of Newtons (N), Newton seconds (Ns), concepts of impulse, total impulse and impulse theory, but I do know what thrust is, and that if you apply enough of it one can even make a brick fly. So without exact math, I did the best I could referencing the sources stated above and determined the F motor to be most suitable for a low altitude, maiden shake-down flight and the G68 motor for a more high-performance flight.

4) Recovery:

One 36" ripstop nylon parachute from TopFlight recover dot com! Again, I have only a guess/estimate of final weight for calculating a descent rate and this is what I ended up with that is close enough for me. With a quick search, many descent rate calculators can be found out there in the cloud.

20 feet of 1/2'' kevlar pull tape from Aerocon. I went through several alternatives to address ejection charge heat and zippering issues such as 1'' climb-spec nylon webbing (too heavy and bulky at 20 feet long), 1/2'' tubular kevlar, again too heavy and bulky, and a two-piece zipperless airframe design but ultimately chose the kevlar tape. I believe I can eliminate zippering with the correct adjustment to the delay. Software simulations will be run once a final weight is achieved. On this topic, if you will notice in the picture above I am using an eye-bolt on the fore-most CR. Does anyone have any advice for tying/affixing the kevlar tape to the eyebolt without impairing the integrity of or weakening the tape?

This concludes this response. Thank you to all who are watching and especially to those who are providing feedback and advice! Keep checking back for updates!

 

[CORZERO]

Fins almost finished! Aft fins were fairly simple, only one bevel. Fore fins were a different story, and were a pain in the ass. I sanded them as close to perfection as my patience would tolerate! To sand and uniform the fins, I simply used sticky-backed 16'' x 2 3/4'' (or whatever it was) fileboard sandpaper and stuck it to the counter top. It worked out ok, and close enough is good enough for me, because I will be applying a generous coat (or two) of automotive primer to the rocket once it is assembled. This will allow me to fill airframe spiral groves, fine-tune and uniform beveled surfaces of the fins, and other imperfections.

 

[CORZERO]

I searched for quite some time to determine the most effective, least destructive method of slotting the airframe and concluded with this:



The X-acto knife! Granted, this was a very time consuming and stressful procedure, but it turned out great! I used 1" aluminum angle such as the ones pictured below being used in a mock idea for a fin alignment setup



to make the longitudinal marks on the airframe where I needed to make cuts. It worked out great! I cut a strip of paper 1" wide and long enough to overlap the circumference of the airframe to get the 1'' gap between the fore and aft fins. Speaking of fin alignment (another subject I researched and contemplated for waaayyyyy too much time), being the perfectionist that I am (those who know me may laugh) I decided on these custom guides from Nat at Upscale CNC:





Perfect guides. Enough said!!!!!!!!!!!

Out of NY, he can be reached here: Nat Kinsey <[email protected]>

 

[CORZERO]

Query:

Has anyone used these guys?

https://www.ak-models.com/lasercutservices.htm

I'm thinking about drawing up a CAD file for a fin set. Seen below is a critical error that may warrant a new set of fore fins:



Not sure how I made this mistake???? Anyone have a solution?

 

[dgreger]

Not sure how I made this mistake???? Anyone have a solution?

Is it all four fins?
You can cut a thin strip of the scrap ply you used for the fins, put some Titebond on it and slide it into the gap then use whatever you were going to use for attachment. You mentioned you are using Rocksim, it will calculate Tab depth for TTW fins, I haven't had it come out wrong so far. Nice job on cutting the slots. You're right it's a little nerve wracking but if you take your time it's not as bad as it seems. I built a 5.5" upscale SA-14 Archer with 1/4" ply fins and cut all the slots by hand using an exacto knife. I got lucky, not one rotation during flight all the way up and over 4500ft.

 

[CORZERO]

Is it all four fins?
You can cut a thin strip of the scrap ply you used for the fins, put some Titebond on it and slide it into the gap then use whatever you were going to use for attachment. You mentioned you are using Rocksim, it will calculate Tab depth for TTW fins, I haven't had it come out wrong so far. Nice job on cutting the slots. You're right it's a little nerve wracking but if you take your time it's not as bad as it seems. I built a 5.5" upscale SA-14 Archer with 1/4" ply fins and cut all the slots by hand using an exacto knife. I got lucky, not one rotation during flight all the way up and over 4500ft.

Thanks for the idea! Yes, it is all four fins. I am not versed in RockSim and honestly haven't had a chance to play around with the software too much. In your experience, have you ever worked with wood glue? I was wondering if a bead of wood glue on the contact edge of the fin would be a sufficient solution to fill the gap. Apply the wood glue, let it tack up and then install, let dry, and apply the 6209 Aeropoxy I am using for fillets?

Speaking of fillets:



Nice and ugly, but no one will ever see them and they are only structural. This is my first experience with ES6209.



This stuff is STRONG when it is cured! 32 fillets total! Man, this thing has a lot of lumber!





Above is the method I used to ensure a concentric CR before inserting into the BT. Tacked on with medium CA. During the design process for this build I realized that there must be an order of assembly adhered to for all parts to be installed and adhered correctly. 3 CR's, 8 fins, and a whole bunch of epoxy reinforcement required. It is very much a step-by-step process.



Designed so that the Aeropack motor retainer sits flush with the aft end of the vehicle. I wanted to be able to stand it upright on any flat surface.



I may be getting ahead of myself, but does anyone have a preference for nosecone? I picked up the nosecone on the left from Sunward out of Canada. To the right is the stock cone. I will be modifying whichever I end up choosing to include the adjustable eyebolt/washer weight system:



This system was explained in an above post but for some reason the pic did not attach. Again the above photo is only an example.

I have done well so far to keep the exterior of this rocket appearing stock, but I just like the way the Sunward nosecone looks even though it (as well as the Estes cone) is not to scale. It only ads 1" to the rocket, and that would benefit my CG/CP issue as well. Any thoughts?

For Comparison:

 

[CORZERO]

Starting to take form

 

[CORZERO]

Launch pad. Need a blast deflector. Next post will be a snapshot of my wireless remote ignition system.

 

[TALON]

Great build:clap: I built one stock in the early 90's. 1st flight 100' ALT. Deployment at 20', 2nd flight, D12 cato:dark: When I became a BAR (3 years ago) my 1st project was to build another AIM-54, w/mods: a chute bucked, anti-zipper harness & AeroPack 24MM Retainer. My plan was to use 24MM AP motors. But when sanding after 1st primer coat, the rear fins came off :y: I never repaired it. I have most of the material to build another, but it is on the back burner. Good luck with yours.

 

[Rex R]

I have used pieces of bamboo skewers to make 'wood filets' when my fin tabs had a depth issue. Mad cow rocketry has a nice looking phoenix in 2.2" dia.
Rex

 

[CORZERO]

I have used pieces of bamboo skewers to make 'wood filets' when my fin tabs had a depth issue. Mad cow rocketry has a nice looking phoenix in 2.2" dia.
Rex

Thanks for the hint! I resolved my gap issue. I used 5 minute epoxy in two places of the fin tab to the motor mount. After all four forward fins were tacked in place I laid the ES6209 fillets and just let it dry. They turned out fine. They filled the gaps and made nice solid connections.

I weighed out to 30 ounces today with everything installed. This is less paint weight. Here is a crude file for you Open Rocket guys. Let me know what you think.

View attachment oop_estes_aim_54_phoenix.rkt

 

[CORZERO]

Wireless remote launch controller. 12v SLA battery, main switch and charger on the way from amazon. I will wire everything up and post on that after I get it built and photographed. I tested the range on it today. Hooked the relay up to my car battery and walked about 30 yards away, which was as far away as I could go and still hear the momentary switch activate. Worked like a charm. Need 2.5-7 amps to burn up the igniters. This will provide plenty of juice to light up the CTI igniters I have.

By the way, the shock cord you are looking at is half inch kevlar pull tape from aerocon. About 20 feet of it.




Picture above remote shows 36 inch spherachute. Can't say enough about Sperachutes! Great stuff! Spherachutes.com.
Decided to go with this chute versus the 36 inch flat chute because of the build quality and more importantly the spill hole. Should come down nice and straight. Simulation shows about 11mph ground impact speed. This thing is build like a tank and will be landing on grass, I think it will hold up.

 

[CORZERO]

Sand, prime.... Ad nauseam, ad infinitum....

 

[CORZERO]

315mhz transmitter and receiver
12vdc SLA battery
12vdc LED inline toggle switch
15A inline fuse
.93 ABS cut and adhered to SLA with 6209 for toggle mount

Range (as tested thus far) 50 yards. Burns up CTI igniters instantaneously.

 

[CORZERO]

Ninth picture is first coat. Second and remaining are various coat stages. We laid 5 coats of urethane (yes, automotive) white.

Next up is the installment of all 500 waterslide decals for this thing. I think I may go to excelsior for a complete sheet of decals and save the original Estes sheet. Excelsior decals are amazingly detailed and as an added bonus they seem to be stronger and a bit more forgiving when applying them.

After decal application, back to the booth for clear coat!

 

[CORZERO]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmJQ6fFZna4&feature=youtu.be

 

[Banzai88]

Nice looking missile you have there. I had the pleasure of working with the real thing, back in the day! Can't wait to see it finished and flown! Incidentally, about 1 in 10 of the live Phoenix that we shot during missile exercises turned into Phoeni-bombs! I hope yours has better luck!

 

[CORZERO]

Looking to use double sided tape (same stuff used on auto body panels) to adhere the ACME conformal rail guides I have for the kit.

Any thoughts?

 

[CORZERO]

Coming along