# 13mm booster

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#### spacecowboy

##### Well-Known Member
Does anybody make a 13mm booster ????

If not, Estes should. A 13mm multistage might keep the rox in the park and be fun for the kiddos (that's you and me !)

#### gpoehlein

##### Well-Known Member
I wish! Estes stopped making the A10-0T a year or two ago. I understand you can still get some from a few online vendors, but no one wants to make any more. Pity - there's a number of neat "Mini Brute" two stagers that I'd love to clone, but not much left to fly them.

Greg

#### sandman

##### Well-Known Member
My impression is Estes kinda overproduced the 13mm A10-0 booster so that there is still a very ample supply out there.

I know of several vendor with a bunch of 'em.

Heck, I think I have about 5 packs.

It's sort of a glut.

The will make more when the supply drys up more. They just aren't that popular.

This is pure speculation on my part...ignore it if ya want to.

sandman

#### graylensman

##### Well-Known Member
Ah, the eternal 13mm booster motor question...

Ya know, for an umpopular motor, there sure does seem to be an interest in it. I know, I know, we represent a (vocal) minority of all the people flying rockets out there... but the question keeps coming up and is always asked by <i>someone different</i>.

#### mikeyd

##### Old Rocketeer
As I understand it the A10-3t has been out of production for over 3 years so it is no longer certified for NAR, or TRA launches. I have quite a few left, as well as some old Estes "Short" motors, I would like to see come back! Here is a link to the List of Certified motors.
https://nar.org/SandT/NARenglist.shtml
Here is a list showing the decertification
https://nar.org/SandT/STchrono.html

#### powderburner

##### Well-Known Member
(Don't you know you're not supposed to call them 'short' because it might hurt their feelings? You are supposed to call them 'length impaired' now.)

And I thought I was the only one with a gob of those silly old S-series things still left over. What are they, 30 years old by now? I bought a bunch of them when they first came out because they fit all the NAR competitions that I was flying, then Estes went and came out with the T-series a couple years later. Oh well.

I am a little surprised that anyone even remembers the S motors!

#### Micromeister

##### Micro Craftman/ClusterNut
TRF Supporter
Originally posted by mikeyd
As I understand it the A10-3t has been out of production for over 3 years so it is no longer certified for NAR, or TRA launches. I have quite a few left, as well as some old Estes "Short" motors, I would like to see come back! Here is a link to the List of Certified motors.
https://nar.org/SandT/NARenglist.shtml
Here is a list showing the decertification
https://nar.org/SandT/STchrono.html
Mikeyd:
Just to correct your misunderstanding..A10-3T and A10-Pt motors are NAR contest certified.
A10-0T has a #3 notation which is not spelled out at this time, which means it isn't contest certified but is still perfectly fine at Nar sport launches. The latest update is listed as Feb. 08, 2004. so this is current information.

Like Sandman mentioned, estes production stop is tied to the Glut of A10-0T motors in the warehouses. One of the Hobby shop distributers in my area told be they have Cases and cases of A10-0Ts... so buy all ya want, and continue to fly all you want they Will also be around for a good long while. Like Sandman I to believe Estes will re-issue the motor if the demand returns.

Build and Fly a mini-manchee, 2 A10-0T and a A3-4T have the little thing out of sight for a Good while, use a LONG 2 " streamer

#### Micromeister

##### Micro Craftman/ClusterNut
TRF Supporter
Oops! ment to include a pic of the mini-manchee-3 13mm 3 stage

#### powderburner

##### Well-Known Member
Can anyone identify one or two vendors who are sitting on this proverbial mountain of -0T motors?

#### goose_in_co

##### Well-Known Member
Powderburner,

Here are a couple of links that I found that say that they have A10-0T motors. I have delt with the first two, but not the rest of these vendors. I have a pack stashed away, and I am usually able to find them at Hobby stores that do not turn over thier stock really quickly, or for that matter, Ben Franklin, they also had a nice selection of C5-3's, but that's another thread...

https://www.discountrocketry.com/prod.itml/icOid/743

https://redarrowhobbies.com/estes_engines.htm

https://www.happyhobby.com/hobb_html/estes/estesprice.htm

https://www.rchobbyworld.com/estes.html

https://www.hobbyconnection.com/rocket.htm

Maybe someone else can chime in if they have had any dealings with and of these vendors. Like I said, I have only delt with the first two and they were good.

Happy Hunting!

#### dvldrmmr

##### Member
Hmmm, I might have to revive that 18mm rocket design with 13mm side boosters I came up with a few years ago. As soon as
I can get some motors and time that is . Too bad I didn't bring my rocket stuff with me to college, I'd have 3 or 4 done now (and probably less homework done too lol, so maybe that's a good thing) Anyway, I hope they start to make them again in the future, no sense in building a rocket if you can't fly it...

dvldrmmr

#### mikeyd

##### Old Rocketeer
Originally posted by Micromister
Mikeyd:
Just to correct your misunderstanding..A10-3T and A10-Pt motors are NAR contest certified.
A10-0T has a #3 notation which is not spelled out at this time, which means it isn't contest certified but is still perfectly fine at Nar sport launches. The latest update is listed as Feb. 08, 2004. so this is current information.
Sorry I meant A10-0T, as we were talking boosters, thanks for the correction I do have a qhestion though. Where did you get the information of Feb 08, 2004 as the one file I found at the NAR S and T said " Decertified on 12/31/2003:
Estes A10-0T
Estes/NCR G70-5,7,10
Quest B6-0,2,6; C6-7 " per this site
https://nar.org/SandT/STchrono.html
And if you drill down on the R89 html is explains more here.
https://nar.org/SandT/releases/r89.html
I hope you are correct as I like the A10-0T, and still have my old Midget I like to fly it on!

#### shockwaveriderz

##### Well-Known Member
heres what the combined list on the nar site says:

* A10-3T,PT Estes 13 x 45 3.8 2.50 NAR

I see NO mention of A10-0T ....

you are correct mikeyd:

The following motors, having been out of production for more than three years, will lose their NAR certification for general use effective December 31, 2003.

Estes:
A10-0T

IF you are NOT a NAR member, fly em anyway.......

#### Micromeister

##### Micro Craftman/ClusterNut
TRF Supporter
Originally posted by shockwaveriderz
heres what the combined list on the nar site says:

* A10-3T,PT Estes 13 x 45 3.8 2.50 NAR

I see NO mention of A10-0T ....

Shockie your looking at the combined list last updated in January23, 2004
the Current NAR list, last updated Feb 08, 2004 still show the A10-0T with a #3 notation...what that means is unclear. but It is still listed. I never trust that combined list but than again I don't fly anything bigger than G anyway.

#### mikeyd

##### Old Rocketeer
Not to split hairs, but the A10-0T should have been taken off of the list. The "3" means this "3 Denotes certification for general use expires December 31, 2003 ". I found this on a web archive at this url.
https://web.archive.org/web/20030611052553/https://nar.org/SandT/NARenglist.shtml

But, while it listed on their page, does that make it legal to fly at NAR launches?

Happy Flying!
Mike Dickinson
"Still trying to get my Midget off the ground!"

#### shockwaveriderz

##### Well-Known Member
micro:where is this 2/8/04 listing at?

so you mean the NAr can't coordinate their lists such that by late April the latest listing is still not up on the website?

sheesh........

#### sandman

##### Well-Known Member
But, while it listed on their page, does that make it legal to fly at NAR launches?
You can flyem...

They just aren't certified for "contests"...

I can't think of what "contest" I'd fly them in anyway...spot landing maybe???

sandman

#### Micromeister

##### Micro Craftman/ClusterNut
TRF Supporter
Shockie:
go to the Nar certified motors list a the url mikeyd posted earlier. Once there simply scroll down the page instead of clicking on the "combined list" prompt.
It was my understanding the certified motors list is updated monthly? the date on this list is as of this morning Feb. 08, 2004
which still lists the A10-0T with the #3 notation.

To jump on my Soapbox a little:
It has been my personal contention the "de-certification" of motors for Sport flights is now and always has been WRONG. I and others are trying to get S&T to amend or drop this now proven outlandish practice. Once a motor is certified as safe.. how or more important Why would you pull that certification? Do old motors become unstable, dangerous or a threat to ourselves or others. The answer is a resounding NO! Several independant studies have shown the Old BP motors (many from the 1960's) performed within the manufacturers spec's when flown in 2002 4 decades later! The only "concern" was the clay caps seemed to become so hard over time they need to be scored slightly to allow the ejection charge to work properly.. I can tell you for a fact I personally fly ancient motors on a regular basis, without a single mishap or ill effect to model or person Matt Steel and assicoates did an exhaustive study in 1997 or 98 which conclusively showed vintage BP model rocket motors performed as intended after 30 or more year, with minimum power lose. S&T should not be rescinding safety certifications which are stamped clearly on each motor, simply because they are old. De-certification for contest use is a completely different matter having more to do with availability than safety. To eliminate some scare motors from the competition field is fine to maintain a degree of leveling the playing field. Safety certification for general use once given should not be rescinded by the Nar until the motors are used or destroyed by the person who spent the money on them.
This dicscussion of a widely available, perfectly good booster motor is a perfect example of this Flawed practice. A10-0T's and many other discontinued motors out here are just fine to use. the old FSI F-100's may be an exception..but maybe not
End of editioial, I hope this isn't considered political.. it's mostly common sense

keep em flyin OLD and/or Micronized!

#### wwattles

##### Well-Known Member
And, of course, the other obvious reason for decertification: flawed performance. I've heard that there were certain production runs of selected motor types that were prone to CATO or other failure. Those, certainly, should be decertified and pulled from the market until they get the manufacturing problems fixed and can demonstrate proper, reliable operation.

WW

sandman

#### Micromeister

##### Micro Craftman/ClusterNut
TRF Supporter
Sandman:
that fine.. but step up to the sport range checkin and proclaim your fling a B14-5 and see what happens Yeah! I know ya just tell them your flying a B6-4...
If I go to Naram which it's looking more and more like I will be out of town. $*&$##@ dang it.. in my backyard almost and I'm gonna miss it! but if I get there and try to fly my Mini-manchee on 2 A10-0T and An A3-6T I'll bet you money it will not make it to the pad! which is just silly.
I'm working on the 4th letter to S&T on this very subject... Maybe I'll throw it out here also as some kind of petition and see how many signatures I can gather

#### powderburner

##### Well-Known Member
It would be great to get some clarification from NAR, to find out if old motors can at least be used 'officially' for sport flying.

I will use old motors anyway, since about 99 percent of my flying is me with my boys. But it sure would be good to have the NAR spell out exactly what we can use them for.

#### sandman

##### Well-Known Member
Micro,

If Carl (SEMROC) is RSO he'll let ya fly it.

Won''t ya, Carl?

sandman

#### Carl

##### Well-Known Member
Originally posted by sandman
Micro,

If Carl (SEMROC) is RSO he'll let ya fly it.

Won''t ya, Carl?

sandman
Ask some of the sport flyers at the last three NARAM's. I have many people upset at me that I would not let them fly engines that they bought on the way to NARAM that were not on the current list.

It would be nice to fly the Firefly as a two-stage.

And I can attest to Sandman flying over fifty flights at NARAM. I thought he was twins he flew so often!

#### graylensman

##### Well-Known Member
Originally posted by Micromister
... Maybe I'll throw it out here also as some kind of petition and see how many signatures I can gather
hey, I'll sign - this would be the first rules change that I (a new NAR member) understand!

#### racerx

##### Well-Known Member
Bringing this back from the dead...

Will I lay waste to countless hectares of fertile Illinois prairie if I cut down an 18mm B6-0 to use as a booster in my Firefly? I know it's a no-go at an organized launch but if it's just me and the kids...

#### MetMan

##### Well-Known Member
What do you mean by "cut down an 18mm B6-0 to use as a booster"?

#### racerx

##### Well-Known Member
Originally posted by MetMan
What do you mean by "cut down an 18mm B6-0 to use as a booster"?
The Semroc Firefly uses the old "shortie" 18mm motors. It comes with 18mm adapters and recommends gluing the 13mm motors into them, but the A10-0T is pretty scarce these days. Even if I could find any, going through two adapters per flight (or even cut down expended 18mm motors) is less than ideal.

I was wondering if would be dangerous/not possible to simply Dremel off the B casing down to the 1.75" or so to size it to the booster.