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100,000 Foot Flight

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Bruce

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JohnCoker

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The ARLISS To100k team did it a few years ago, but that was a private team, not an individual.
 

hobie1dog

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found this info:
A lot of this is based on what Curt told me a few years ago when he did the test flight, so some of it may be outdated! If you guys know better, please let us know.
  • Overall design is very closely based on the Black Brandt VIII (a.k.a. Nike Black Brant) sounding rocket.
  • CTI N5800 to CTI N1100. N1100 had a larger nozzle expansion cone wound out out of carbon tow.
  • The sustainer fincan and nosecone are covered in ablative (iirc, Minteq FIREX).
  • He made a really neat interstate that is match machined to fit perfectly inside sustainer's nozzle; he told me that he had to machine tiny vent holes that run the whole structure or else pressure would build up inside the sustainer motor during boost and separate the stack early.
  • He sewed the parachutes himself, the drogue chute is a Disc Gap Band design that is stable even during supersonic descent.
  • Telemetry was a 70cm 100mW BigRedBee GPS.
 
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watheyak

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I was there for some of the construction. He used my stash of prepreg for the fin cans. They're a work of art...

The tubes taper in diameter, the fins use a mortise and tenon joint at the root and have a pronounced diamond airfoil. Many hours on his manual mill.

Ablative was involved as well.
 

Bruce

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I sure hope Curt von Delius can get a non COCOM limited GPS into a future high altitude flight...
 

Bruce

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I'd be interested in hearing about those 100K flights Jim. Might you be able to tell us when each was flown along with a little background? What particular challenges were you trying to overcome with each flight and what did you learn that allowed you to make the next flight better? Also how did you deal with the COCOM GPS limits?
 

Nytrunner

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I'd be interested in hearing about those 100K flights Jim. Might you be able to tell us when each was flown along with a little background? What particular challenges were you trying to overcome with each flight and what did you learn that allowed you to make the next flight better? Also how did you deal with the COCOM GPS limits?
That would be a lot of retyping.

Relive the Jim Jarvis Journey here!
 

MClark

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At BALLS in the ‘90s there were 100,000’+ flights that were not documented outside the launch, maybe just a reference in a magazine article. No internet.
There were other early flights which most likely went over 100k but the electronics of the day would not work that high.
 

JimJarvis50

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I'd be interested in hearing about those 100K flights Jim. Might you be able to tell us when each was flown along with a little background? What particular challenges were you trying to overcome with each flight and what did you learn that allowed you to make the next flight better? Also how did you deal with the COCOM GPS limits?
Maybe I'll come back in a few days and respond to this after the OP has his question answered. I'm pretty sure I know of two other flights at Balls within the last 5 years, but I'm not 100% sure about either flight or whether it was a team or not. One was to 118K and the other was just over 100K, but I can't find a reference to either.

Jim
 

VernK

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Two flights over 100K are documented here:

The GPS used in Kate 2 has unlimited altitude capability.
 

Conway Stevens

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At BALLS in the ‘90s there were 100,000’+ flights that were not documented outside the launch, maybe just a reference in a magazine article. No internet.
There were other early flights which most likely went over 100k but the electronics of the day would not work that high.
Back then a friend of mine was part of a team that flew over 100k. Ken Mizoi. He was part of the ouR project. Powred by a single R motor. There used to be online video from it. Rocket had downlink with data and video i believe. But it came back in ballistic.
 

mikec

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I'm pretty sure I know of two other flights at Balls within the last 5 years, but I'm not 100% sure about either flight or whether it was a team or not. One was to 118K and the other was just over 100K, but I can't find a reference to either.

I think Kip Daugirdas made it over 100k once: https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/workbench-2-0-two-stage-100k-build-thread-and-more.133002
 

mikec

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Back in the 90s 94k is pretty dang close still very respectable.
Certainly, and I didn't mean to say anything different. But if you are talking about confirmed amateur flights over 100Kfeet AGL there were none before the 2010s except RRS, as far as I know. [Added: and CSXT, if you consider them amateur.]
 
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plugger

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Hey Buddy, is that your street address in the Location field of your profile?
 

TonyL

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It doesn't require a team to get over 100k ft, but a good group of people make it a whole lot easier. Ours only went 112kft last time [video on the TRA facebook page], so still some work to do.
 

Bruce

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It doesn't require a team to get over 100k ft, but a good group of people make it a whole lot easier. Ours only went 112kft last time [video on the TRA facebook page], so still some work to do.
Might you be able to provide some details or a link to a non-Facebook page about the rocket and its flight? Date, altitude, motors used, total impulse, weight, etc... Thanks
 

JimJarvis50

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I'd be interested in hearing about those 100K flights Jim. Might you be able to tell us when each was flown along with a little background? What particular challenges were you trying to overcome with each flight and what did you learn that allowed you to make the next flight better? Also how did you deal with the COCOM GPS limits?
OK, here's a little information on each of the five flights.

The first was in 2011 at Balls. It was a two-stage N5800 to N1100. We had periodic gps on the way up and continuous gps on the way down. What I didn't know is that there was an altimeter program problem. I was the first to find it, and the net effect of it was that all of the charges blew at about 98K. The rocket was still going about Mach 1.5 at the time and the air frame and nose cone separted. The nose cone with the gps drifted up above 100 K, but the rest of the rocket was never found. It was most dissapointing to find only the nose cone at the landing location. In addition, that problem probably cost me the Carmack prize that was going on at the time. The flight is at 1:00 in the video.


The second was in 2013 at Balls. Same motors to 118K. This was the first flight with complete video. Of note is the really long delay time before lighting the sustainer. I was trying to keep the speed down to avoid shreads. My wife and I had to climb part way up a mountain to get it back, which you can see from the landing at the end of the video.


The third was a three stage flight in 2015 at Balls. This was the second try for this rocket (2nd stage didn't light in 2014). This was also the first attempt to fly with my stabilization unit between the first and second stages. I was using both roll and yaw/pitch control from launch, and I believe that torque generated by the use of yaw/pitch caused binding between the first stage and the stabilization system. So, that joint didn't separate when it was supposed to and the stabilization system couldn't return the rocket to vertical. It flew to 130K and everything recovered OK, but it was not a good flight.


The fourth was another flight of a three stage rocket in 2018 at Balls. This was the four three-stage attemp (in the third attempt in 2017, the 2nd stage didn't light due to an altimeter programming bug). It was a nice flight to 175K feet. In this flight, the stabilization system worked as intended, which resulted in a relatively short recovery (a pic showing tilt versus time is attached). In this flight, we lost gps at 160K. We didn't know that was going to happen, so for a while, we didn't know what was going on with the flight. Two videos for this flight.



The fifth flight was a group project in 2019 at Balls. 6" P motor to 4" O motor. The flight went pretty well except that the sustainer coned, probably due to a not very good ablative application, which held the altitude to 142K. This flight was noteworthy because "Kate" controlled the entire flight (all of the deployment charges, the staging, tilt detection). Unfortunately, the flight wasn't able to demonstrate the unlimited altitude capability of Kate. Maybe next time?

https://youtu.be/nzGOcTSvWNo

Jim

Tilt Graph 3.jpg
 

mikec

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I think Kip Daugirdas made it over 100k once...
Actually twice: once at BALLS in Sept 2016 to 145K (CTI N2500 to AT M685), and again in July 2018 to 154K (CTI N2501 to AT M685.)
 

BABAR

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How many NAR and Tripoli Rockets have flown to over 100,000 feet?

The NAR lists a flight to 118,632 feet by Jim Jarvis on 9/20/13,
https://www.nar.org/high-power-rock...ources/nar-rocket-science-achievement-awards/

Tripoli lists that same flight and one to 154,068 feet by Kip Daugirdas on 7/4/18,
http://tripoli-records.org/records/complex.html

These are both clearly tremendous achievements.

Are there other documented flights to over 100K by private individuals?
I must be tired after working nights, when I saw this I first thought it said “100,000 foot finish.”

I thought, “Yeah, I’ve built a bunch of THOSE.”
 

Bruce

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OK, here's a list of the 100,000 foot Rocket Flights known so far.

The first group is individual flights with the altitude recorded by GPS.

The second group is flights where the altitude was not recorded by GPS or the rocket was built by a team.

7/18 Kip Daugirdas - ~154,000ft, N2501 / M685
9/16 Kip Daugirdas - ~145,000ft, N2500 / M685
9/21/19 Jim Jarvis - 142,109 ft, P8535 / O6061
9/15 Jim Jarvis 3 stage - ~130,000ft
9/20/14 Neil Anderson Money Pit - 118,638 ft, N5800 / N1560, 36,949NS, 105 lbs
9/20/13 Jim Jarvis FourCarbYen - ~118,632ft, N5800 / N1100,

07/14/14 Ky Michaelson CSXT Go Fast - 385,800 ft, team project
9/21/18 Jim Jarvis ThreeCarbYen - ~175,000ft, no apogee GPS data
9/30/11 Derek Deville Qu8k - ~121,000 ft, Q18,000, 143,000NS, 320 lbs, no GPS data
9/11/12 Ken Biba AeroPac - 104,659 ft, N1000W / M685W, 21,650NS, 61 lbs, team project
9/11 Jim Jarvis - ~100,000ft, N5800 / N1100, no GPS data

Let me know needed additions and / or corrections. More data such as the rocket's name, weight, exact date and altitude would be most welcome.
 

VernK

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Let me know needed additions and / or corrections.
Curt von Delius flew a two-stage well over 200K in 2018. It was too high for his GPS to work. The GPS stopped at 164K MSL as expected. I think the extrapolated altitude was about 240K at apogee. Here is a link to his video:

There is some more information about the flight in the Fall 2018 AeroPAC Newsletter: https://www.dropbox.com/s/yt96uakns0doslh/Fall 2018.pdf?dl=0
 

Bruce

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Thanks Verne! Here's the updated list:

100,000 foot Rocket Flights

7/18 Kip Daugirdas - ~154,000ft, N2501 / M685
9/16 Kip Daugirdas - ~145,000ft, N2500 / M685
9/21/19 Jim Jarvis - 142,109 ft, P8535 / O6061
9/15 Jim Jarvis 3 stage - ~130,000ft
9/20/14 Neil Anderson Money Pit - 118,638 ft, N5800 / N1560, 36,949NS, 105 lbs
9/20/13 Jim Jarvis FourCarbYen - ~118,632ft, N5800 / N1100,

07/14/14 Ky Michaelson CSXT Go Fast - 385,800 ft, team project
6/16/18 Curt von Delius PHX4 - >200,000ft, M3400 / N1100, no apogee GPS data
9/21/18 Jim Jarvis ThreeCarbYen - ~175,000ft, no apogee GPS data
9/30/11 Derek Deville Qu8k - ~121,000 ft, Q18,000, 143,000NS, 320 lbs, no apogee GPS data
9/11/12 Ken Biba AeroPac - 104,659 ft, N1000W / M685W, 21,650NS, 61 lbs, team project
9/11 Jim Jarvis - ~100,000ft, N5800 / N1100, partial recovery, no apogee GPS data

Feel free to add any corrections or additions
 

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