OK to go drogue less for Giantleaps Talon 4?

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rbvanleer

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I am getting ready to order a giant leap talon 4. This will be my second dual deploy rocket first being PML's Mini bbx. So I want to order everything at the same time and was wandering if anyone has any experience with going drogue less with this rocket, or does it really need a drogue and if so what seems to be the correct size. I will be doing the phenolic version with the fiberglass sock and I will probably fiberglass reinforce the fins. Any info would be helpful and thanks in advance.

Rich Vanleer
Tripoli #12313
Level 2
 
rbvanleer said:
I am getting ready to order a giant leap talon 4. This will be my second dual deploy rocket first being PML's Mini bbx. So I want to order everything at the same time and was wandering if anyone has any experience with going drogue less with this rocket, or does it really need a drogue and if so what seems to be the correct size. I will be doing the phenolic version with the fiberglass sock and I will probably fiberglass reinforce the fins. Any info would be helpful and thanks in advance.

Rich Vanleer
Tripoli #12313
Level 2
Click to expand...

Any dual deploy rocket can be flown drogueless.
 
That is correct, but some rockets will still come in semi-ballistic (very fast) if the upper half drags the fin can down with it and it gets stretched out vertical instead of horizontal. I noticed 3 or 4 do this at LDRS. Makes for a pretty hard shock when the main does open, if the fin can doesn't fall through the chute.

Giant Leap recommends a 24" drogue for the Talon 4, I would get it. Even if you don't use it in the talon, it can be used in other rockets. You can always use it on most days and leave it off when the winds are up a little higher. Options are good.:)
 
I'm going to go against what most will say, and tell you to never go drogueless.

Why?

Because you increase the risk of entanglement, as well as deployment damage.

Yeah, I know, someone out there has done it 500 times and it hasn't ever given them problems. But I've seen too many drogueless rockets where the parachute starts to come out while everything is flopping around all over the place, and something goes where it doesn't belong, leading to a tangled mess.

I've also seen a rocket cut through a Kevlar harness when the harness was wrapped around the fin at deployment, due to things flopping around. The Kevlar cut 3/4 of the way through the G10 fin root until the G10 finally won out and the Kevlar severed.

Fortunately, we were able to estimate the approximate location where separation happened, and find the bottom section.

Use a drogue. Even a small one, or a streamer, will avoid any of this. It keeps things oriented the way they belong.

-Kevin
 
troj said:
I'm going to go against what most will say, and tell you to never go drogueless.

Why?

Because you increase the risk of entanglement, as well as deployment damage.

Yeah, I know, someone out there has done it 500 times and it hasn't ever given them problems. But I've seen too many drogueless rockets where the parachute starts to come out while everything is flopping around all over the place, and something goes where it doesn't belong, leading to a tangled mess.

I've also seen a rocket cut through a Kevlar harness when the harness was wrapped around the fin at deployment, due to things flopping around. The Kevlar cut 3/4 of the way through the G10 fin root until the G10 finally won out and the Kevlar severed.

Fortunately, we were able to estimate the approximate location where separation happened, and find the bottom section.

Use a drogue. Even a small one, or a streamer, will avoid any of this. It keeps things oriented the way they belong.

-Kevin
Click to expand...

I completely agree. Skip to near the end of this video for an example deployment. https://s694.photobucket.com/albums/vv306/5x7rocket/?action=view&current=SpecterESL127.flv

The rocket is about 35 lbs and the drogue is about an 15" x form. Oriented perfectly and very orderly main deployment. I won't fly without one.
 
I will also add my thumbs up to using a drogue. Even an 'undersized' drogue chute should be enough to keep the rocket peaces apart and minimize tumbling. I know many rocketeers who use tumble recovery, and it has bit every single one of them at one point in the hobby.
 
I have a Talon 4, with quite a few flights on it, i would not consider flying it drogue less, it's a very tail heavy rocket with all those g 10 fins. On another note, you might want to consider zipper proof construction techniques, mine zippered twice. I installed a fireball, and it still sustained massive airframe damage. After that i repaired it with the coupler on the aft airframe. no problems since. Part of my problem with it may be that i add to an already tail heavy rocket by flying it on hybrids.

Jeremy

Here it is on a K 240.[YOUTUBE]9xm__5dwxwc[/YOUTUBE]
 
Last edited:
Handeman said:
some rockets will still come in semi-ballistic (very fast) if the upper half drags the fin can down with it and it gets stretched out vertical instead of horizontal. I noticed 3 or 4 do this at LDRS. Makes for a pretty hard shock when the main does open, if the fin can doesn't fall through the chute.
Click to expand...

Is there any way to simulate teh behavior of drogueless deployment for a given rocket? If the forward section is more stable than the fin can, will that tend to be a problem, or is it more complex than that?

I will be doing my first dual deployment flight soon (LOC Vulcanite) and was considering drogueless, but might go with a small (12") chute or streamer (size?)
 
Last edited:
Also, if you use a drogue chute, the main chute you use can be a little smaller
thus saving space and weight in the rocket.

placement of drogue is important too. I place mine closer to the av-bay/payload section. It helps keep the motor/booster section below the payload bay. The main comes out above everything else so there is no worry that a fin can will dive right through your main chute.
 
slogfilet said:
Is there any way to simulate teh behavior of drogueless deployment for a given rocket? If the forward section is more stable than the fin can, will that tend to be a problem, or is it more complex than that?
Click to expand...
For drogueless you want the CP and CG of each section to be close together. If, for example, you have a short payload section with a heavy nose cone, its CG will be ahead of its CP and it will fall nose down and drag the booster along with it.

I'm sure the dynamics of the coupled sections is more complex but I'd guess that's the gist of it.
 

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