When & Where to Hold a Future LDRS

Based on a question asked in another thread - Here it is

Where in the U.S. would you like to see a future LDRS Held - to add to the Fun What month of the year ?

Somewhere hospitable to families, including children. Somewhere with sufficient facilities (food, gas, hotels, etc) within a reasonable driving distance -- no more than 60 - 75 minutes away.

Time of the year? Summer -- many families come out, and it's hard during the school year, when kids are in school.

-Kevin

troj said:

Somewhere hospitable to families, including children. Somewhere with sufficient facilities (food, gas, hotels, etc) within a reasonable driving distance -- no more than 60 - 75 minutes away.

Time of the year? Summer -- many families come out, and it's hard during the school year, when kids are in school.

-Kevin

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That narrows it down! LOL
What state and What Month?

Phoenix, AZ in March (Spring Break Trip)

Roy, typically, what has been the waiver for this event? You know our call-in, is that high enough for this event?

El Cheapo said:

Roy, typically, what has been the waiver for this event? You know our call-in, is that high enough for this event?

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I dont think waiver height is a DQ for hosting. It may be a bid consideration if another bid is 50k and yours is 9k.

Roy, I agree with Kevin, although LDRS realy has me unnerved as a father, I like that it IS a familly event...
SO, things like a well mantained bathroom, instead of a portapotty within driving distance is a pluss for some of the women i know....

I think the BOD requirement is that you put them up in a hotel within 1 hour drive of the site...*** i dont know thow ***

December in florida, would be great, spring in AZ is probably perfect....

The humble truth is, if its hosted, they will come... LDRS is a perfect reason for my as a dad to tell my kids teachers, they wont be in school... starting this year....

Be nice to see it work it's way back to the East Coast. Problem is finding a good Waiver in the East.

rdbones said:

That narrows it down! LOL
What state and What Month?

Phoenix, AZ in March (Spring Break Trip)

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Spring Break for whom? As an example, the larger school districts in the Omaha area tend to not have everyone on break at the same time.

During the school year will cut down on attendance

-Kevin

El Cheapo said:

Roy, typically, what has been the waiver for this event? You know our call-in, is that high enough for this event?

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At Argonia, Wayside and Lethbridge, at least 25,000' was available. LDRS 27 had and LDRS 30 will have a 50K' waiver, but the number of flights above 25K'-30K' are a small percentage of the total flights.

At Geneseo, Jean and Lucerne the waivers were somewhat less. IIRC, Geneseo was about 13,000'. Folks will adapt to whatever the waiver is. There may not be high waivers available at most sites east of the Mississippi, but there is a higher concentration of flyers and LDRS is just fine with a bit lower max altitude.

If you have a site suitable in all the parameters and a club willing to host - the waiver altitude probably won't be a deal-breaker.

If you host it, they will come.

--Lance.

I'll come right out and say it. I want one in Muskegon, Mi. I sincerely hope there is someone willing to take up the task of putting in a bid. While I cannot commit our club to being the primary bid submitter I can say we would be perfectly willing to help where we can.

Muskegon would more than meet Kevin's requirements. Lots and lots of hotels, beaches, state parks, etc. nearby. Summers can be quite warm but not brutal like Argonia mid-july. Not only that there is a (albeit small) amusement park just north of town. They currently have a 16k waiver but what I heard from the guy that originally got the waiver is that the FAA told him that a waiver to 25k would be "no problem."

I hear JMRC is doing joint launches there with MMAR. Hopefully someone has the stones to pull it off.

And I am not suggesting this because LDRS would only be 80 miles from my house...no wait...yes I am. :cyclops:


-Dave

llickteig1 said:

At Argonia, Wayside and Lethbridge, at least 25,000' was available. LDRS 27 had and LDRS 30 will have a 50K' waiver, but the number of flights above 25K'-30K' are a small percentage of the total flights.

At Geneseo, Jean and Lucerne the waivers were somewhat less. IIRC, Geneseo was about 13,000'. Folks will adapt to whatever the waiver is. There may not be high waivers available at most sites east of the Mississippi, but there is a higher concentration of flyers and LDRS is just fine with a bit lower max altitude.

If you have a site suitable in all the parameters and a club willing to host - the waiver altitude probably won't be a deal-breaker.

If you host it, they will come.

--Lance.

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One additional thought to add to Lance's post.

There does not exist a "perfect" time or location to host an LDRS. Ever! The complaints you will hear will include (but not limited to) the time of year, the distance from the person's house or from the nearest town, the temperature, and the waiver. The best a club can do is put on a safe and enjoyable event. The folks that can come will. Those that can't won't.

I personally would like to see the next LDRS held in Pickrell, NE hosted by the fine folks at THOR. I have two selfish reasons for this. One, it would be very close for me to travel to and secondly, I'd love to watch Kevin pull out hair he doesn't have!:lol:

Bob

BBrown said:

I personally would like to see the next LDRS held in Pickrell, NE hosted by the fine folks at THOR. I have two selfish reasons for this. One, it would be very close for me to travel to and secondly, I'd love to watch Kevin pull out hair he doesn't have!:lol:

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Did I tell you I'm taking that year off from rocketry?

There does not exist a "perfect" time or location to host an LDRS. Ever! The complaints you will hear will include (but not limited to) the time of year, the distance from the person's house or from the nearest town, the temperature, and the waiver. The best a club can do is put on a safe and enjoyable event. The folks that can come will. Those that can't won't.

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Truth be told, it'd be cool to have LDRS here. But you raise exactly why it won't happen -- we don't have the location, the club, or the equipment to pull it off.

-Kevin

troj said:

Spring Break for whom? As an example, the larger school districts in the Omaha area tend to not have everyone on break at the same time.

During the school year will cut down on attendance

-Kevin

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The launch site will dictate the time of year for most potential hosts. Whether it is row crops, sod, rainy season, dry season, too hot, too cold, etc. is a factor.

Summertime will cause fewer conflicts for the most people. People just plan on traveling in summer. Clearly, families with school-aged children who might want to attend will have a lot of difficulty going outside June, July, and early-August. Even then, there are a few year 'round school districts that will cause challenges for the folks affected (small number, though). You can't always accommodate EVERYONE.

The ideal time for KloudBusters to host is July or August, but it can be beyond unpleasant in the plains during those months (reference LDRS 22). June is not possible due to crops. We decided in '08 to move it back to our AIRFest weekend (Labor Day) because of the mid-summer heat. It was a trade-off we chose to make. Shortly after Labor Day, the fall crop planting kicks in, so in reality, our window of opportunity is very small.

Spring break is not consistent around the country, but in certain areas an early spring LDRS might be the best trade-off option. Some crops aren't planted until late-April or May and some places are wicked hot in June, July, and August.

The upper midwest sites might have their best window of opportunity in October or November due to crops.

Florida and some of the deep South might have an opportunity in Dec. and/or Jan. Sounds a little crazy, but why not? LDRS and Disney World all on a Christmas/semester break, anyone?

Again, the host club and site have to figure out what is available and the trade-offs.

--Lance.

dlb said:

Be nice to see it work it's way back to the East Coast. Problem is finding a good Waiver in the East.

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Patience young Jedi - your wishes may come true...



I'd like to see it come back to Orangeburg (need a real excuse to go there) and I'd go for late June.

DAllen said:

I'll come right out and say it. I want one in Muskegon, MI

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Great idea! Seems like a combined effort from multiple Midwest clubs could make this happen. In Indiana & Illinois we can't have the launch due to crops, but we have great clubs in Northern parts of both states that put on some fairly good size launches (Midwest Power, Thunderstruck & NSL a few years back) and could provide volunteer support.

H_Rocket said:

Patience young Jedi - your wishes may come true...



I'd like to see it come back to Orangeburg (need a real excuse to go there) and I'd go for late June.

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the sod farm is nice. been there once when i lived in charlotte nc and flew with rocc wow that was 1999

dixontj93060 said:

Great idea! Seems like a combined effort from multiple Midwest clubs could make this happen. In Indiana & Illinois we can't have the launch due to crops, but we have great clubs in Northern parts of both states that put on some fairly good size launches (Midwest Power, Thunderstruck & NSL a few years back) and could provide volunteer support.

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A cooperative effort like that is great, especially if clubs agree in advance to handle the range for certain times, or to help with other efforts.

Taking over range duty for a period of time is especially helpful, as it lets the host club get off their feet, take a break, and if things work out well, fly a rocket!

-Kevin

I think it would be awesome to have it in Colorado during June or July

Late June, Colorado

Colorado would be nice. Do you guys have any fire bans that time of year? If one could get permission from High Plains Raceway it would be an amazing event.

H_Rocket said:

I'd like to see it come back to Orangeburg (need a real excuse to go there) and I'd go for late June.

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I've asked the ROSCO/ICBM folks about that. IIRC, the new warehouse that was built between the field and the interstate kinda put the kibosh on future LDRSes being held there. Which is a cryin' shame, I tell you.

Colorado used to be a regular LDRS site; in Hartsel, I think. In fact, when I got into rocketry and started hearing about LDRS, I thought Colorado was the permanent site for it.

Would the Red Glare site ever be a possibility for an LDRS?

Black Rock, Nevada Summer (sometime when I'm not in school)

The field at Higgs farm is only available October-April, and the Sod farm is an actual working farm so there is never enough down time. LDRS at Higgs would be cool, though I don't think the timing would be right.

DJDeadParrot said:

I've asked the ROSCO/ICBM folks about that. IIRC, the new warehouse that was built between the field and the interstate kinda put the kibosh on future LDRSes being held there. Which is a cryin' shame, I tell you.

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There's 5 big industrial buildings in the park. Also, a power substation has been added to the southeast and much of the far south field is now crops, last year corn. There is much more commercial activity at the interchange than when we last held LDRS in 2000, including a Love's travel plaza. You can see much of this from the onboard video as the rocket descends from 7800 feet under main...
[YOUTUBE]a4NAVBjuCQk[/YOUTUBE]

DAllen said:

I'll come right out and say it. I want one in Muskegon, Mi. I sincerely hope there is someone willing to take up the task of putting in a bid. While I cannot commit our club to being the primary bid submitter I can say we would be perfectly willing to help where we can.


-Dave

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I agree Dave.
There are four great HPR clubs in Michigan alone. Yours, JMRC, Muskegon and Team 1. With the help of others it could happen!

I have family in the Detroit and Grand Rapids areas - LDRS in Michigan would be a good reason to go see them !

I am glad that this is getting people talking and thinking - A joint / multi cob venture would be great. This would foster working relationships between neighboring clubs.

For an LDRS location we need to look at what is expected as minimums for motor size and altitude, this will give the field size. It does not matter if it is east, west or central the requirements will be constant. Many past sites have been encroached by civilization or the size of motors used today is larger eliminating those sites

https://www.tripoli.org/Launches/Safety/HighPowerSafetyCode/tabid/185/Default.aspx

Field size.
In the safety code there are two factors controlling field size, motor impulse class and waiver altitude, "The flying field (launch site) shall be at least as large as the stated in Table 1. or Not less than one-half the maximum altitude expected". So it may be a great thing to get a 50k' waiver but it is no good if you don't have a 5 mile field (2.5 miles clear radius actually.) Size vs. motor class is straight forward, however the way it is written a full N plus one Nsec is an O and the field must now be a mile larger.

What seems to be up for debate in some areas is what constitutes "will not present a danger" "Launch a high power rocket only in an outdoor area where tall trees, power lines, and buildings will not present a hazard to the safe flight operation of a high power rocket in the opinion of the Safety Monitor" Some past sites had a LOT of trees and buildings in what was considered the clear area, I guess the Safety Monitor had a different opinion than me.

Waiver altitude.
The waiver altitude the FAA give out can be a mystery at times. The problem is you have to find a site and get permission from the land owner, have it near services etc and then apply for the waiver. We have done this a several sites that looked good on the aeronautical charts but the FAA says no or a low waiver. Then it is back to the start, suitability, permissions..........
In most places field size vs altitude is not an issue, if you can get a field to support the motor class sport type rockets will stay under the waiver .

Now for opinions and speculations.

I would say in this day and age an O motor or a cluster adding up to an O should be able to be launched at LDRS, people attending expect to see big rockets and a N motor does not cut it anymore as "Big".
So we are at a 5 mile clear area.
If we have this size field we can now launch as high as 50k' if we have the waiver to do so.

Now for the part that will really get flamed from all directions

I think for an LDRS the minimum waiver should be 8000' standing with windows to 15,000'. There will be little opportunity to set records but sport type, not minimum diameter, rockets can be launched in all motor classes. we launched the Gila Monster at the local launch with O size clusters with a 11k window. A higher waiver would be great but it is unrealistic to expect it in the East. if the waiver is lower other factors (Proximity to hotel, weather, good BBQ) would have to make the site more attractive.

Mark

El Cheapo said:

Colorado would be nice. Do you guys have any fire bans that time of year? If one could get permission from High Plains Raceway it would be an amazing event.

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Right now, we have we have not been launching as a precaution, due to a pretty dry year for the records. I fly with Northern Colorado Rocketry, which is out a few miles on the plains, in the Pawnee National Grassland. Thousands of acres of recovery area and 35'000 ft. windows at certain launches.

While there is quite a bit of snow in the mountains, there hasn't been too much precipitation in the launch area. This is one factor that isn't desirable, but it depends on the year. It's my favorite launch site I've been to, but I hear Hartsel is pretty cool also.

MClark said:

For an LDRS location we need to look

Mark

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https://www.mmarocket.com/Home_Page.php
Mark, I think Muskegon meets the size you mentioned and has a standing 15k waiver. with call ins to 50k? (someone correct me if I am wrong)

MClark said:

What seems to be up for debate in some areas is what constitutes "will not present a danger" "Launch a high power rocket only in an outdoor area where tall trees, power lines, and buildings will not present a hazard to the safe flight operation of a high power rocket in the opinion of the Safety Monitor" Some past sites had a LOT of trees and buildings in what was considered the clear area, I guess the Safety Monitor had a different opinion than me.

Mark

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MClark said:

I would say in this day and age an O motor or a cluster adding up to an O should be able to be launched at LDRS, people attending expect to see big rockets and a N motor does not cut it anymore as "Big".
So we are at a 5 mile clear area.
If we have this size field we can now launch as high as 50k' if we have the waiver to do so.
Mark

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(i miss read your post as an o motor cluster!! oopps...) your saying complex o distance... still i think N is good enough - end edit..


i think what you are describing doesnt exist anywhere in the contiguous 48, except for black rock...maybe wsmr...

I think the site dimentions are more prohibitive than the waiver. Not everywhere is expansive as Argonia or black rock for set up. Argonia doesnt even meet your criteria you've just listed as an opinion...

there are few places that can handle 3000 people, even less can handle that and class three projects.

I think ldrs should remain a family event that travels the country and spreads the hobby. This doesnt need to be balls... then it isnt a family event.

if you want to see and launch class 3, there are several venues a year, including your balls launch that will get it done for you.

I would be perfectly happy going to an LDRS that had an N max...

jim fustini said:

https://www.mmarocket.com/Home_Page.php
Mark, I think Muskegon meets the size you mentioned and has a standing 15k waiver. with call ins to 50k? (someone correct me if I am wrong)

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Looks really flat there.
Is the black area to the south (Hall Drain) a lake?
And they are a NAR Section not a TRA Prefecture

Mark