Estes Scion to Fun Scale Patriot kitbash

Thanks to this thread about the Leviathan, and the following comment from Rich Harshberger.......

rharshberger said:

Its also a great starting point for several upscales, or a ProSeries Patriot Missle (same nose cone, or close enough). All the PSII kits are can be kitbashed easily into something else, like a Partizon to a Cherokee-D.

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......my barely-creative juices started flowing. I have a couple Scion kits, and have decided to dedicate one of them to a kitbash into a Patriot. Because the kit wasn't meant to have a super scale nose cone for an unrelated missile, nor boat tail or anything of the sort, I figured a fun way to do this would be to just get the point across with a fun scale Patriot. I've had a ton of fun with my Estes BT-60 based Patriot, seriously it's one of my all-time favorites to bring to the field, that the decision was made to take measurements off that kit and do a fun scale upscale of the Estes. I even worked with Stickershock to modify their Patriot vinyl package to be less scale and imitate the Estes decals. So that should be fun! You guys get the idea - if someone comes up to me and says "Hey your Patriot isn't very scale", I get to say, "Yep, but you know that it's a Patriot which is good enough for me!"

For Leviathan owners who want to do the conversion (though with them now OOP it would be a gutsy move), you're in luck too. I started my plans for the Patriot based on an Open Rocket file for the Leviathan, so the precut tube slots should work perfectly with the fins I drew. The only mod I did besides the fins was to cut the lower body tube by 1", and this caused me to move the upper motor mount centering ring down just a little to help keep the tube coupler centered between the two body tubes.

The OR file shows the design as stable even with an H128W, however, it looks like the original designer of the Leviathan file that I started with had the weight of the nose at something like 7 ounces. So I'll have to play with that some, based on what my cone actually weighs. I have a feeling we'll see some BBs and epoxy finding their way into my nose cone before this thing flies. Additionally, I am planning on using rail buttons instead of the launch lugs in the file (and in the kit), and some sort of upgraded shock cord anchoring (eye bolt, kevlar, etc) to get experience before building something more in the L1-L2 size range (yes I have the kit picked out for that one). Keeping this one simple, no avionics bay, but I'll drill some holes for an altimeter or to use a Chute Release.

My plan is to mostly fly this with mid power as designed, but I am hoping given the right field and flying conditions to put an H in there and get an L1 certification. Build is going to be off to a slow start since I have a short vacation starting tomorrow, and a work trip the day after I get home. I am excited though, to get started on this as soon as time allows.



View attachment Estes Scion to Patriot.ork

I was wondering if thats where you were headed when I saw the Patriot in the parts photo.

I probably should have checked this with my paper template first, but honestly wasn't expecting this to work based on the shape of the fins. But yes, you can cut the Patriot fins out of the kit-supplied fins if you want. I'll probably cut my fins this way now - the grain of the exterior laminations may not be perfectly parallel with the leading edge, but having the precision of the laser-cut fin root and tab are probably worth the tradeoff.

With plywood the orintation of the grain won't make as much difference as it would with balsa or basswood, due to the alternating direction of the grain in each individual layer of the plywood.

Ya know... something looks familiar about that .ork file. :wink:

I hope it helps.

Mind you when I first read the title, I thought that it said "Full Scale Patriot" and I was wondering what you had in mind with that.

View attachment Estes Scion to Patriot.ork

It did help, thank you for uploading the Leviathan file! Made for a very quick modification for me, once I had the measurements I needed.

Vacation and work trip are over so I can finally get some garage time in. Got the fins cut out. You can see that this upsizing is perfect for using the stock fins.

Marking locations for the fin slots in the body tube and centering rings on the motor mount.

Cutting one of the body tubes to 9". I just wrapped a piece of paper around the tube to use as a marking guide, and cut it using light passes with a #11 blade. Easy.

So of course I had to check the size against my Estes Patriot.

Looks close enough to me, definitely watch the nose weight on this one. Looking good so far.

Thoughts on shock cord mounting/baffle? Maybe do a half-moon or full ring with holes baffle setup towards the top with an eye bolt in that? That would double as a chute shelf, maybe also negate the need for a chute protector? Tie the stock elastic shock cord to that, or get more kevlar line? Or just use the teabag standard setup?

rharshberger said:

Looks close enough to me, definitely watch the nose weight on this one. Looking good so far.

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Yeah I don't see any way this will balance like the open rocket file shows - the nose just isn't that heavy. Fortunately I have a jar of BBs sitting around somewhere.

Got the fin slots cut so time for another mockup.

Flyfalcons said:

Got the fin slots cut so time for another mockup.

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Looking forward to seeing this fly!

Quick sanity check before I commit with JB Weld. This is an eye bolt going into a blind nut (and secondary locking nut) on the upper centering ring. Will this work out well if I get some kevlar line and attach it to this? I can keep the kevlar shorter than the end of the body tube and attach the elastic to it (via swivel) or make the kevlar longer and use some anti-zippering attachment at the top of the body tube. Looks like once the rocket is built that access to the eye bolt will be nearly impossible. Okay to proceed, or is this asking for trouble? Or just dumb, unnecessary, and I should just tea bag it?

I did my Lvl 1 on a Leviathan. Installed an eye with nuts top and bottom, jammed up tight, and epoxied on both sides. Next up I put in some 100lb kevlar line that I left long until final assembly. I tied a loop just below the top of the body tube, and tied the stock elastic shock cord to the kevlar loop. It's flown half a dozen times with no issues, with the elastic bundled with the parachute in a nomex blanket.

Flyfalcons said:

Quick sanity check before I commit with JB Weld. This is an eye bolt going into a blind nut (and secondary locking nut) on the upper centering ring. Will this work out well if I get some kevlar line and attach it to this? I can keep the kevlar shorter than the end of the body tube and attach the elastic to it (via swivel) or make the kevlar longer and use some anti-zippering attachment at the top of the body tube. Looks like once the rocket is built that access to the eye bolt will be nearly impossible. Okay to proceed, or is this asking for trouble? Or just dumb, unnecessary, and I should just tea bag it?

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You can, if you are not going to use the motor block on the tube, cut off the excess above the top centering ring which will allow easier access to the the eyebolt.

One thing that you can do for attaching the Kevlar is to take a length of it that is a little over twice the length you need, tie a loop on both ends of it, then fish one end through the eye bolt. You then pull that up, and make sure that the loops end just short of the top of the body tube. Next you attach your elastic, or other other shock cord to both loops. After flying you can then pull the loop of Kevlar around and inspect it for wear. To replace it, just untie the elastic from the loops, attach some fresh kevlar to the old, and pull it through. No fuss, no muss.

That's a great idea - I'll probably do that.

Finally back home from my trip so I can get back to work. Fins are on and the first set of external and internal fillets are curing. Also have the Apogee rail button epoxied in place.

Picked up a Jolly Logic Chute Release. Should be fun to play with.

Epoxy for external and fin-motor tube fillets, and wood glue for fin-body tube interior fillets. Ready to close up the fin can!

Upper rail button is 24.5" back from the tip of the nose cone. That is my target CG (loaded and RTF) for 1.5cal stability. So as long as the flight CG is at or forward of this rail button, I should be good to go.

Flyfalcons said:

Epoxy for external and fin-motor tube fillets, and wood glue for fin-body tube interior fillets. Ready to close up the fin can!

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Looking good, when you planning on your L1 flight?

rharshberger said:

Looking good, when you planning on your L1 flight?

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FITS, hopefully. I had the days off for it, but swapped my vacation for some days closer to the due date of Munchkin No.2. So I have a bid in for those days off using my normal schedule and will see later whether I can make it. But I'm definitely up for flying with your club again if the schedule works out!

Flyfalcons said:

FITS, hopefully. I had the days off for it, but swapped my vacation for some days closer to the due date of Munchkin No.2. So I have a bid in for those days off using my normal schedule and will see later whether I can make it. But I'm definitely up for flying with your club again if the schedule works out!

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I will see you at FITS then most likely.

With all components in place, save the kevlar shock cord, chute release, and glue to couple the fin can and main tube, I'm at 15.7 ounces. The epoxy filleting and eye bolt certainly contributed a little extra weight but were deemed a good tradeoff to handle an H-power flight. We'll see how much the paint and vinyl add, then make the final balancing with lead shot nose weight. Right now the rocket is balancing on the 1.5cal rail button. From that target final CG to the rough center of motor mass is 12", and it's 24.5" to the tip of the nose. So I'll probably end up with half the weight of my heaviest planned motor as the ballast in the tip of the nose. The added weight of the chute release (0.6oz) up front will be considered a bonus.

After a long week on the road, I finally got back home to perfect painting weather! I had laid the white base coat down before leaving, so it was just a matter of getting the yellow and red on. I finished the colors yesterday and set the rocket in the box for my jawstand to cure undisturbed.

Well, the key word there is undisturbed. That was the goal anyway. Some time last night or this morning, our new wiener dog Axle jumped up against the box and knocked it over. Wiener dogs are burrowers and he just "followed instinct" and manage to attack the foam and the rocket. Thanks, buddy. Most of the damage was limited to the upper body tube, so I'm waffling now on maybe cutting the damaged section and splicing new tube, or just starting over. Maybe a Madcow fiberglass kit would be less tasty than cardboard. Ugh.

Oh no! That's terrible! I think I'd try to repair this one first, if that doesn't turn out, start over. I'm sure whatever you do, it'll still look great and you'll be happy with it.

Crud.. sorry to hear/see that. I can't see the damage.. hopefully it's light and repairable. Is that a full scale aircraft empennage I see in your photo?

Bummer.