Loc Esoteric & Top Gunn: Dinosaur builds!

After a slow year in rocketry for me in 2015, I’m ready and raring to go for 2016. Great plans abound, with visions of rockets old and new, low n’ slow and high n’ fast, and simple and complex. Lots of launches near and afar, I’m truly looking forward this season!

One of the projects for ’16 is a trio of 7.5” birds. Covering a wide variety of the spectrum, “Hot Topic II” is all glass, with a 152mm mount, while the Esoteric and Top Gun are Loc classics that I was lightly pressured into building. In this thread, we’ll focus on the old school Loc dinosaurs: the Esoteric and Top Gun! I learned of High Power Rocketry through High Power Rocketry magazines (imagine that!) in early '93 with the Nov/December '92 issue. At that time, Loc had just come out with their 5.54" and 7.51" plastic nosecones, and thus the "Custom" kits with the balsa wood transitions of the late 80's were on the decline. Occasionally a photo of the balsa transition based Esoteric or Top Gun would grace the pages of HPR in the 90's, and would largely be forgotten thereafter. Thus, the sad extinction of the dinosaurs....until recently.

Countyline Bob has been working with the Doc of Loc Barry (not Ron) to resurrect some Loc favorites of yesteryear. That, and that stinker Nik Byra has been on a tear tracking down parts and pieces for Esoterics and Top Guns, both old and new. Nik's progress is in this fine thread: https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?130654-Loc-Precision-Esoteric-build-thread&highlight=esoteric And then we run into Red Arrow Dave unloading some of his old stock hangar queens out of his shop at a Michiana launch. The stars aligned right and I was able to buy a Top Gun kit from Bob Jablonski on Black Friday. The key piece of the equation here was the balsa transition. And so the journey begins....

Mr. Eric
Looking forward to watching your builds and even more important harassing you in person again. By the way the Laser Loc will be going up at Three Oaks this April. With Ohare taking control of the wavers we are stuck to 12,000 so it will go up on a J270 to keep it under the waver. Ohare is cracking down on wavers, That is one reason Indiana has been having a bit of a problem getting a good field. This weekend we will find out if the Michiana April launch is going to be 2 or 3 days (I am hoping for 3).

The foundation of the 7.51" Loc Custom Engineering kits was the balsa transition. My understanding from Bob J. is that Barry came across 4 transitions from the depths of a dungeon, that were masterfully turned by Ron Schultz, the original Doc of Loc. Nik B. walked away with one or two, Gary K. got one, I got one, and I'm not certain who grabbed the remaining one. Regardless, you can't create one of these oldies without a transition, so this is a key component! But I have two rockets to build and only one transition....

Original Plan
Use a single transition for both rockets. In order to turn a Top Gun top into an Esoteric top, simply add 9" of 5.54" airframe to the top. Simple....but I'm lazy and selfish, I'd rather have two complete rockets that I can display side by side (most likely debuting at Midwest Power 14).

Plan B
I like fiberglass, mold making, and parts fabrication. I've made a few molds before, why not mold the transition? This way, I can selfishly create two (or more) complete 7.51"-5.54" dinosaurs, and maybe even help the rest of the rocket community out if other's have the desire.

With that, we begin the mold making process. Admittedly, I'm only part way there (thus "Part I"); here's progress so far.

Stock balsa transition. Nicely machined, but aged and has a few "hangar rash" dings, dents, and deformities:



First step: coat with a thin layer of thin epoxy. In this case, West 105 Resin, 206 hardener. Apply, let soak in for a few seconds, and wipe off. Don't want to add to the od, just toughen up the surface and give me something harder than balsa to sand. Lightly sand, then prime. Then sand again.



Fill imperfections, sand flush, ready for more filler and primer!



As promised, more primer:



Sanded primer. After several rounds, we're getting close. In order to make a good mold, you need a good plug. That is the goal here!



After several rounds of the above, over the course of a month or so (weather, free time, other priority interventions), we get to the point of paint. Painted a nice shade of red. The plug is nearly ready!



Next steps for the transition are:
1. wet sand with high grit paper.
2. Polish with Finesse-It.
3. Put on and take off several coats of wax "mold release".
4. Build the mold!

More later on the transition....

bob jablonski said:

Mr. Eric
Looking forward to watching your builds and even more important harassing you in person again. By the way the Laser Loc will be going up at Three Oaks this April. With Ohare taking control of the wavers we are stuck to 12,000 so it will go up on a J270 to keep it under the waver. Ohare is cracking down on wavers, That is one reason Indiana has been having a bit of a problem getting a good field. This weekend we will find out if the Michiana April launch is going to be 2 or 3 days (I am hoping for 3).

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Absolutely; looking forward to seeing you again as well! I have the Vulcan J250 put back together in plugged format...it will be flying in a Thoy Falcon at the Michiana April launch!

Thanks so much for rounding up these old critters! Looking forward to getting some airtime for these classics in 2016!

I'll be honest, I like fiberglass rockets, but for sport flying, I really prefer cardboard rockets! I very much enjoy putting them together, and I've been having a blast with the Esoteric so far! One thing that some people choose to do, others omit, and some do but struggle to high heaven, is peeling the glassine layer of the cardboard tubes. When I'm building a paper/cardboard/wood rocket, I *always* make sure to peel the glassine in the areas to be bonded. It's really quite simple! Think of this post as a public service announcement....for those that already do this/get it, no worries, just skip this post.

See that slight indentation between the darker spiral lines on the tube...that part where it's just the glassine layer over a gap in the top layer of real paper wraps? The one where the knife is in the following photo. Lightly run your #11 blade in that gap over the entire length of the tube....takes maybe a minute, plus adds steps to your Garmin FatBit thingy as I learned! The blade tracks well in the groove, you gotta try to jump out of the gap!



Once you ran the length of the tube, peel the top glassine layer at one end of the tube. Just the top layer, and again, it should come up very easily! And begin to peel....



...and continue peeling until you have a long streamer of glassine paper on your work surface.



You now have fuzzy, virgin paper tubes ready to soak up all kinds of glue much more readily than had you left the glassine layer in place.

Now that we have naked paper, a bit of prep work is done to the centering rings. Loc can chop up plywood with the best of them...some nice rings for the 7.51" tube accommodating five 54mm mounts per the original Esoteric. Added some T-nuts for motor retention, eyebolts for recovery attachment, holes for airstart conduits, and away we go!

Rings:


Then we glue it all together. Used that Titebond non-runny filleting stuff. Works well, is sufficient for the task at hand, and comparatively lighter than epoxy equivalents. Big enough that the camera has troubles focusing on both ends simultaneously. Three of the tubes run the full length of the lower airframe + coupler tube, the remaining two are shorties.





All ready for installation into the lower airframe!

Last update for now....

Bob had the Top Gun drop shipped from Loc. After learning this, I felt it appropriate to simply have Loc cut a set of Esoteric fins and send them along right away. They cut a nice set of four 9mm Baltic Birch fins; nice straight cuts and all evenly matched...nice!

But I just can't leave those edges square, and I don't want to hand sand bevels or even round edges onto these meaty things. So, out comes the beveler machine (aka router table set up for beveling fins). Saturday's high was around 0 with wind chills in the hearty negatives, Sunday looked a lot more promising with highs in the teens and *only* a 40% chance of snow. Having a little extra time and enough motivation, fin bevels were completed on Sunday.



A bit cool, wind present, and just a hint of snow. Wood dust + snow = oatmeal consistency mess that clings to coats, hats, gloves, and face that refuses to let go! For those that complain about a 50 degree workshop being too cold and prohibiting progress....suck it up!:wink:

Before fin on the right and After fins on the left. (And Griffin's 5" cone on the slight left...hey Griff we need to trade one-of-these-days!)

One last post for now....Where's the Top Gun? Or Top Gunn? I've seen it spelled both ways...

Long story short, when Bob/Nik started this recent fiasco/obsession, I really wanted to build the Esoteric. Loc already had the Top Gun kitted up, so that wasn't an option. But with parts I already have on hand, a Top Gun kit would turn into an Esoteric fairly easily. But then what do I do with a pre-slotted tube, Top Gun fins, and (4) 54mm tubes that are too short for the bigger Esoteric fins? Well, I guess I'll have to build both.

In the meantime, I learn that Nik has three? Top Gun boosters, so he's going to hook me up with one. And then Red Arrow Dave pulls this cat out of his trailer at the December Michiana launch.



Tom C, my elder, is cleaning up and modernizing it right now.

To summarize, once glass transitions are made, we've gone from "not making a Top Gunn" to possibly having three Top Guns in the stable. More to follow on this...

not realy wanting to hijack your cool build but LOC is making me some Heavy Duty Beautys. I was going to set them up for next black Friday but....
will have available tomorrow. now back to Eric's cool build.

Love to watch this kind of build especially with Mr. Cayemburg at the helm.

Eric, as you may remember I have four "oldies but goodies" in progress scheduled for my rocketry flying return at MWP this Fall. Not as big as yours, but still fun: a LOC King Viper III (actually looks like Barry has brought this one back to the lineup after a special OOP kitting he did for me 18 mos ago), a Rocket R&D Corporal in honor of my first TAP mentor Gary Buck, a newly acquired OOP BSD Canadian Sprint from Scott Binder's old stock, and finally a special kitting Mike Fisher did for me of an old Exocet MM-38 design from the Binder Design archives.

Hey, if we could get a bit of momentum behind this maybe we should have an MWP "beauty contest" featuring these stalwarts from yesteryear?

Eric, for Balls, you should do an upscale of the rocket you flew at LDRS. I forget the exact configuration of it (I like to put frightening things like that out of my memory), but I want it again!

Jim

Eric,
Very nice work! Your transition is beautiful! I can't wait to see both of the rockets complete.
-Nik

bob jablonski said:

not realy wanting to hijack your cool build but LOC is making me some Heavy Duty Beautys. I was going to set them up for next black Friday but....
will have available tomorrow. now back to Eric's cool build.

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Cool! I have an HDB with a dozen flights on it...typically a 29mm AP H or I motor airstarted 4 BP D's or E's via thermalite!

dixontj93060 said:

Love to watch this kind of build especially with Mr. Cayemburg at the helm.

Eric, as you may remember I have four "oldies but goodies" in progress scheduled for my rocketry flying return at MWP this Fall. Not as big as yours, but still fun: a LOC King Viper III (actually looks like Barry has brought this one back to the lineup after a special OOP kitting he did for me 18 mos ago), a Rocket R&D Corporal in honor of my first TAP mentor Gary Buck, a newly acquired OOP BSD Canadian Sprint from Scott Binder's old stock, and finally a special kitting Mike Fisher did for me of an old Exocet MM-38 design from the Binder Design archives.

Hey, if we could get a bit of momentum behind this maybe we should have an MWP "beauty contest" featuring these stalwarts from yesteryear?

Click to expand...

Thanks Tim! Absolutely, I've been watching and waiting for an update on the R&D Corporal! Love me a King Viper as well; really looking forward to it!

Agreed on the "beauty contest", or classics photo or the like. My first issue of HPR had a photo of a collection of modelers with their Estes upscales...a pretty neat collection and photo. Would be nice to capture like minded folks and their projects!

JimJarvis50 said:

Eric, for Balls, you should do an upscale of the rocket you flew at LDRS. I forget the exact configuration of it (I like to put frightening things like that out of my memory), but I want it again!

Jim

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Hi Jim! He he he. Like my long lost friend once said: I have some unfinished business out at Black Rock. As much fun as 20 motor clusters are, I think I'll try a simpler approach: single stage single motor attempt this time around. Hoping to get something off the ground this time around! To further agitate bad memories however:

[video=youtube;_M65GUSV4S4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_M65GUSV4S4[/video]

nraymondb said:

Eric,
Very nice work! Your transition is beautiful! I can't wait to see both of the rockets complete.
-Nik

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Thanks Nik! Looking forward to more updates on your projects. Thanks for being a positive? influence in this endeavor!

dixontj93060 said:

Love to watch this kind of build especially with Mr. Cayemburg at the helm.

Eric, as you may remember I have four "oldies but goodies" in progress scheduled for my rocketry flying return at MWP this Fall. Not as big as yours, but still fun: a LOC King Viper III (actually looks like Barry has brought this one back to the lineup after a special OOP kitting he did for me 18 mos ago), a Rocket R&D Corporal in honor of my first TAP mentor Gary Buck, a newly acquired OOP BSD Canadian Sprint from Scott Binder's old stock, and finally a special kitting Mike Fisher did for me of an old Exocet MM-38 design from the Binder Design archives.

Hey, if we could get a bit of momentum behind this maybe we should have an MWP "beauty contest" featuring these stalwarts from yesteryear?

Click to expand...

I have a King Viper (Polish Thunder) it loves I280DM DMS. I may try 3 J270W DMS at the April Three Oaks Launch along with the Laser Loc

The Laser Loc. I always wanted one of those.

The ANTI-ROCKET!!!!!!!

AS Eric knows my favorite cluster of all time. I was fortunate to see it fly twice, of course the first time is always best, cause ya never know what's gonna happen. [in a good way].
It may not be big in size, but huge in heart....always a MEGA crowd pleaser.

Is it still alive?

Suppose I could dig out the old Mummie cluster rocket for LDRS or MWP if ya'll are going down memory/nostalgia lane.

That is a line of kits I would like to see come back but the hardwood nose cone put the nix on there return.

A little more hijacking,
Bob, how about the CTI J145 skidy longburn in the King Viper III? Would there be enough oomph?

Adrian

jd2cylman said:

A little more hijacking,
Bob, how about the CTI J145 skidy longburn in the King Viper III? Would there be enough oomph?

Adrian

Click to expand...

More than enough. 3xJ145=70ft/s leaving rail

.

jd2cylman said:

A little more hijacking,
Bob, how about the CTI J145 skidy longburn in the King Viper III? Would there be enough oomph?

Adrian

Click to expand...

I like hijacks; but I love CTI J145's! Somebody must fly the King Viper on the trio of J145's! Tim...you choose your motors for MWP yet?

ECayemberg said:

I like hijacks; but I love CTI J145's! Somebody must fly the King Viper on the trio of J145's! Tim...you choose your motors for MWP yet?

Click to expand...

Right now I'm leaning bravado--first flight on three K400'ish EX motors.

I have an original Mother Load, 7 1/2", real tall, 3 54mm motors.
I bought the kit with 3 K550 cases for $100!! 20+ years ago.
My friend Brandy assembled and painted it about the same time. It has never been launched but we are threatening to do it at BALLS now that we don't have to run the show.
It used to be we were afraid it would crash, now the altimeters, parachutes and recovery knowledge is much better so survival may happen.

M

There was a Mother Load at LDRS that flew Friday. unfortunately recovey was with a trash bag. Jack Thompson from Ohio built just about all the custom LOC Kits. back then I could barly afford a PML Quasar and here comes Jack with his custom rocket rack in the back of his truck deciding which one to fly as I was drooling

bob jablonski said:

Jack Thompson from Ohio built just about all the custom LOC Kits.

Click to expand...

And so then there is one more MWP vintage participant!

markkoelsch said:

The Laser Loc. I always wanted one of those.

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In my stuff I have the wooden cones from both the 54 and 3", the larger used thicker than standard tubing.
I never throw anything away.

M

My rocket husband Erik Cz and I talked about buying and building a King Viper III just for the J145's, but money dictated we wait til next year (he's got a third kid on the way; I suggested ebay, but was voted down by his wife... And I'm only working 4 days a week; 32hrs).

Adrian

jd2cylman said:

My rocket husband Erik Cz and I talked about buying and building a King Viper III just for the J145's, but money dictated we wait til next year (he's got a third kid on the way; I suggested ebay, but was voted down by his wife... And I'm only working 4 days a week; 32hrs).

Adrian

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Buy the Heavy Duty Beauty from CountyLine and we'll let you into the club :wink:

dixontj93060 said:

Buy the Heavy Duty Beauty from CountyLine and we'll let you into the club :wink:

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That's one plan. CTI 29 6xl H226 SK in the center and CTI 24 6 grain G100's SKD's in the outboards... Hmmm

Adrian

I've got an LOC Ultimate Max from Bob Jablonski that I am putting the final touches on for this year, 7 38's most likely J425's

blackjack2564 said:

The ANTI-ROCKET!!!!!!!

AS Eric knows my favorite cluster of all time. I was fortunate to see it fly twice, of course the first time is always best, cause ya never know what's gonna happen. [in a good way].
It may not be big in size, but huge in heart....always a MEGA crowd pleaser.

Is it still alive?

Suppose I could dig out the old Mummie cluster rocket for LDRS or MWP if ya'll are going down memory/nostalgia lane.

Click to expand...

CJ, please do bring back the Mummy cluster! I love the big 6" Endeavor and clusters are always exciting....one way or another!

The Anti-Rocket rocket could fly again. At LDRS33, someone made off with one of the Pheasant Phins and one or more of the C11's had anomalies and toasted some of the lower airframe pretty bad. Would have to do some surgery, and pick up another 20 24mm BP engines, but I suppose anything's possible. You coming up to Bong this summer at all?

Flight #2: you can see where the sustainers came of much earlier and lower than anticipated, but they were lit.

[video=youtube;qNbl1iF6ST8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNbl1iF6ST8[/video]

-Eric-