Motors...... Hypertek and such

Just wondering how many of you still fly Hybrids?

Our big issue in Orangeburg, SC has been aging GSE. One of the issues I hear from the AP and Sugar crowd is "it's too complicated !" Is that the main issue or is it something else? Here's what I see:

1. Commercial AP motors - Generally reliable but somewhat pricy....
2. Research home made AP motors - with practice and desire, not a bad way to go
3. Sugar - Easy to make but, somewhat less umph (technical term) when compared to AP motors
4. Hybrid - more complicated but, cheaper to fly than commercial AP and Research Motors
5. Liquid - we don't need to go there.... as much as I would like to.

I have to admit, I am a big fan of the Hypertek System. I flew my Level 1 and Level 2 on a Hypertek J on the same day. (way back in the day, when you could do that) I did my Level 3 on a Hypertek M. I must admit I am aggravated with the state of Hybrid GSE which is why Malcolm and I are doing the new GSE System. I'd like to hear what you think........

Thanks, Sam

samtc said:

5. Liquid - we don't need to go there.... as much as I would like to.

Click to expand...

And we were worried about sparkies. Liquid has a higher risk of fires.

I have avoid the Hybrids because of the complexity. I am intrigued to learn more.

If we can get it to work with the Wilson FX system, I would be more interested.

cwbullet said:

I have avoid the Hybrids because of the complexity.

Click to expand...

I fly hybrids because I like the complexity!

Ditto.....

Ditto - though I fail to see why they are more complex.

Chuck - Monotube hybrids (Rattworks, Skyripper, Contrail) should work fine with Wilson FX, you just have to use two channels to launch (three if you want a dump valve)

Now if I could only get some more Skyripper reloads

The main issue for us is the lack of reliable GSE. Anytime you have a failure to launch and have to dump a tank of nitrous, the appearance of complexity prevails. I have made multiple trips to Orangeburg to fly and the GSE let us down. (Probably the reason we are putting so much into this new GSE.) Johnny plans to fly and all M Hybrid Heavy Delta. 3 M's Side by Side ! Can't wait to see what rocksim says about that flight profile.

H_Rocket said:

Ditto - though I fail to see why they are more complex.

Chuck - Monotube hybrids (Rattworks, Skyripper, Contrail) should work fine with Wilson FX, you just have to use two channels to launch (three if you want a dump valve)

Now if I could only get some more Skyripper reloads

Click to expand...

How many hybrid companies are still in business?

To the best of my knowledge, In the monotube arena, only Contrail and Rattworks

Have you looked at the Pratt Hobbies launch controller. His is customizable, and supports hybrids nicely. I know he posted his website domain registration got messed up, but worth a look. Also, one of the really good guys in the hobby.


Mark Koelsch
Sent from my iPhone using Rocketry Forum

markkoelsch said:

Have you looked at the Pratt Hobbies launch controller. His is customizable, and supports hybrids nicely. I know he posted his website domain registration got messed up, but worth a look. Also, one of the really good guys in the hobby.


Mark Koelsch
Sent from my iPhone using Rocketry Forum

Click to expand...

This is his new URL:

https://www.pratt-hobbies.com/

For my education, what does GSE stand for, and what does it do (no experience with hybrids)?

CZ Brat said:

For my education, what does GSE stand for, and what does it do (no experience with hybrids)?

Click to expand...

GSE = Ground Support Equipment

Hybrids require a bit more at the pad, in most cases. AeroTech hybrids were the exception - they have a tank that's filled away from the pads, the installed with a burst disc.

A "typical" hybrid is remote-filled at the pad. The GSE facilitates this, as well as the specialized ignition process that HyperTEK hybrids require.

-Kevin

CZ Brat said:

For my education, what does GSE stand for, and what does it do (no experience with hybrids)?

Click to expand...

This link will take you to a test of a wireless ignition system we are working on: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LFMju5wpkc#t=22

Here is a link to the manual: https://www.hypertekhybrids.com/manual.pdf

samtc said:

Just wondering how many of you still fly Hybrids?

Our big issue in Orangeburg, SC has been aging GSE. One of the issues I hear from the AP and Sugar crowd is "it's too complicated !" Is that the main issue or is it something else? Here's what I see:

1. Commercial AP motors - Generally reliable but somewhat pricy....
2. Research home made AP motors - with practice and desire, not a bad way to go
3. Sugar - Easy to make but, somewhat less umph (technical term) when compared to AP motors
4. Hybrid - more complicated but, cheaper to fly than commercial AP and Research Motors
5. Liquid - we don't need to go there.... as much as I would like to.

I have to admit, I am a big fan of the Hypertek System. I flew my Level 1 and Level 2 on a Hypertek J on the same day. (way back in the day, when you could do that) I did my Level 3 on a Hypertek M. I must admit I am aggravated with the state of Hybrid GSE which is why Malcolm and I are doing the new GSE System. I'd like to hear what you think........

Thanks, Sam

Click to expand...

I regularly fly hybrids. I made my own GSE when I started in Hybrids. I have flown at TCC, LUNAR, and Aeropac. You need your own GSE to fly at these launches. But I have easily made up for the extra cost in GSE with my savings in reloads.

CZ Brat said:

For my education, what does GSE stand for, and what does it do (no experience with hybrids)?

Click to expand...

GSE stands for Ground Support Equipment

For Hybrids This includes but is not limited to:

An Electrical control system that actuates the nitous fill solenoid, dump solenoid, and ignition control. My system uses a relay box at the pad so that the 12 volt battery is near to the launch pad. My system also includes a vent sensor and launch control vent indicator. This senses when the flight tank is full

The piping system that includes a pressure gauge, fill and dump solenoids, and various hoses and connectors

A nitrous tank

For Hypertek you will need a GOX solenoid, GOX tank, and special hard piping on the pad.

there is nothing more exciting like filling your large contrails at the pad...a piece of real space technology... yep hybridz are complex but if all your equipment is set and you are used to it, what a pleasure to fly it. You have no risks of storage, you can research your own reloads, your costs are 25% of AP... and again..the thrill at the pad...and the sound...Karl you know )

To my knowledge/experience Contrail HW and Pratt GSE is a good choice, great vendors, alive and really interested to listen to their customers wishes...
Denis

(on sunday I will fly two 75mm contrails: one K and one M... I am already so excited)

How does performance compare when you add the mass for the mechanical/propellant components? I know the Isp is a lot better, but imagine that pressurized gas tanks are a tad heavy.

What kind of total startup cost are you looking at?


Neat thing about hybrids: they sound totally different than solids. While solids are a sort of powerful "thruuum!" noise, hybrids go "screeee!"

ISP is lower for the typical N2O hybrid than the typical AP solid motor.

Hybrid hardware is a fair bit heavier. Generally it is heavier than it need be, IMHO. The flight tank could be designed with a burst pressure of 1500psi which would have a thinner wall. If the flight tank hits 1500psi, it isn't likely to stop there anyway. Thicker wall is just a bigger boom. The combustion chamber could be designed with a burst pressure of 1000psi and still have an adequate safety margin. Combustion pressure is nominally somewhere around 450psi. Were these alterations in hardware design done, the hybrid still wouldn't match AP performance. Part of the reason is the low density of the N2O, requiring larger hardware, and the use of extra fuel to act as additional combustion chamber insulation.

One thing N2O hybrids allow is the ability to more easily make slow burn motors. For the same total impulse, within reason, a slower burning motor will result in greater altitude.

But the fuel+oxidizer mass fraction just isn't there with our hobby hybrids. They are way overbuilt.

Personally I think hybrids are cool.

Gerald

I agree that hybrids are overbuilt. The reason I fly hybrids is primarily the cost savings. It's at least a 50 percent savings over solids in the M class range.

How does the cost compare in the L2 range?

Contrail 54mm reloads are $44 which includes a sparky motor. They also have an "extra fast" motor for $54. They take 1.5 to 2.5 pounds of nitrous oxide which is between $4 and $6 per pound. So a 54mm contrail K motor hybrid reload could cost you in the realm of $60.

That is pretty not bad. I'm seeing on the order of a few hundred for hardware... looks like the real kicker is ground support, but I think someone here flies hybrids occasionally.

Think of hardware and GSE as an investment. The real cost of Hardware and GSE is the purchase price less the selling price. In other words when you are done with the hardware or GSE you can always sell it. You cannot sell used reloads. That money is gone up in smoke.
I usually expect to get at least 50% of the new purchase price of hardware if I sell it. Take that cost and divide it over how many flights you expect make on that hardware and you will have a cost per flight estimate.
One option is to build your own GSE which is what I did. That saved me some money and it works well for me.

Why is hybrid so exciting? the thrill of filling at the ramp, the sound of the devil inside... I love my contrail hybridzz...great US product !!



enjoy this video..M711 (moonburn), 3000cc N2O, 75mm motor...filmed (far) away from the pad and directly at the pad with a gopro (end of footage)

[video=youtube_share;fdMfxlPpda4]https://youtu.be/fdMfxlPpda4[/video]

Very nice flight Denis! I will be flying the M711 this weekend at Mudrock. The M711 is a long burn motor (seven seconds) and not a moonburn. A "moonburn" is a solid fuel geometry That causes a strong initial thrust and a long weaker thrust and burns long.

Karl, thx for the correction, I learned again from you...
Let us see some pictures of your launch at the weekend please...GSE, setup, rocket etc... would be really interesting to see how you run your M711 flight...
Denis

Here is a photo of myself and the rocket "Mil Spec" at Mudroc. It's not a great picture. I have got to get one of those gopros.

Karl,

is this you or Darth Vader on the picture? Looks it was hot that day..M711 as said? Tel us the specs & flight details...and some pics of the bird? looks nice

In 50+ monotube hybrid flights I've only had a single failure to launch. The tank was empty. I don't see the GSE as being that complex, two solenoid valves and a tank, plus your regular launch control wire. I have flown the 29mm RATT, 29,38,54mm SRS and 65mm RATT.

I almost exclusively fly research hybrids now because all of our launches are TRA research. The cost savings and longer burn time are the appeal to me. A $30 reload for a 9500 Ns M motor and $100 for a 20,000 Ns N motor have me sold.

Edward

AlphaHybrids said:

A $30 reload for a 9500 Ns M motor and $1000 for a 20,000 Ns N motor have me sold.

Edward

Click to expand...

$100 for a full N you mean?

$1000 can buy you a full N in APCP.