Russians to destroy Asteroid ... they beat us yet again :(

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I think I'll kick back in my best recliner, eating popcorn, and wait for Duncan/Krech to re-align the DNA pool to the next planitary sucessor.

What? Like it's never happened before?:rolleyes:

Every now and then, the gene pool needs a good dose of chlorine.:cyclops:
 
Will,

I would GLADLY subsidize a government plan to defend planet Earth from all space threats; this includes asteroid/comet impacts and invasions of E.T.'s.

The planet is woefully unpreparied for planetary invasion! We can BARELY defend our streets, how the HECK are we going to defend our skies!!!

Wake up people of Earth, its just a matter of time until some space fairing life-form happens upon our world and sees all the nice Hydro-Carbon molecules they can just take! Our women would become their breeding centers, and we (males) would just be exterminated. 'I come in peace' is crap. They are here to take and we as a planet had better get ready! And keep an eye on your governments as they would sell us all out in a hearbeat just to share in the new Alien power structure!

Jonathan
Hi Johnathan
I think maybe you should relax a little. You are certainly entitiled to your opinion about whatever and it seems to me you are probably a smart fella but maybe try a to see the bright side a little? On the other hand you may just be kidding which is okay but not evident by your tone:) There is every possibilty by the way any race smart enough to have crossed the stars would simply drop by for a burger lol:)
Have a safe happy new year
Fred
 
Bob,

Is it safe to say then that if we detected a large comet inbound and just passing the orbit of Jupiter, and through observation it is determined that it will likely hit the Earth, there is NOTHING we can do to stop it? Can't use nukes because you just break up one large problem into many little problems.

If your answer is yes, and I think it will be, then let me ask the following:

Is the current scientific discussion on monitoring Near Earth Objects (NEO) just a sham and a waste of tax payer money? I realize its not a waste if you are a scientist who would receive grant money, but in the end, lets say you discover an Asteroid that is nearly certain to impact the Earth; there really isn't anything that can be done accept write your will and pray to your maker?

Jonathan
The answer to the first part is yes. You can't do anything.

https://www.cv.nrao.edu/~pmurphy/patsl9.html describes the the time-line of the shattered comet Shoemaker-Levy 9 collision with Jupiter July 1994. The comet was first identified on 24 March 1993. Before the end of March 1993 it was realized that the comet had made a very close approach to Jupiter in the summer of 1992. At the beginning of April 1993, after sufficient observations had been made to determine the orbit more reliably, it was found that the comet was in orbit around Jupiter. By late May 1993 it appeared that the comet was likely to impact Jupiter in 1994. Searches of archival photographs identified pre-discovery images of the comet from earlier in March 1993 but searches for even earlier images were unsuccessful.

So how much warning time might one have for an unknown interstellar comet? Comets travel at ~ 51 km/s. https://www.lpl.arizona.edu/impacteffects/ The minimum and maximum separation distances from the earth to Jupiter are approximately 600 million km to 900 million km so we would have about a 5 to 7 month period from discovery in the plane of Jupiter until a close encounter with earth.

To intercept the comet, a rocket launched from earth must reach a velocity of at least 11.2 km/s or faster https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escape_velocity and the fastest velocity ever obtained by a spacecraft is 17 km/s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voyager_1 Under the most favorable circumstances if an interceptor traveling at 17 km/s was launched within a month of discovery, the intercept would occur within 150,000 km of earth. Such a fast intercept is unlikely and a velocity of 12 km/s more likely and that would make the delay time even longer and the distance from earth even closer. As you get closer to earth you need to have a more powerful explosion to increase the debris dispersion (angular debris spread).

The problems are several.

1.) It only took a month to determine that the comet would hit Jupiter, but Jupiter has a cross-section 100 times than of earth and a mass 320 times greater than earth, so the predictions don't have to be anywhere as accurate. Bottom line. It would take a longer time to determine if the comet would hit the earth or just provide a close encounter. You don't want to blast apart something that will miss you, because you will increase the probability of a fragment hit.

2.) An interceptor rocket does not exist. Could one be designed, built, programed and launched less than a 5-7 months? Absolutely not.

3.) Effects of fragment impact.

https://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/mystery_monday_040412.html

https://www.lpl.arizona.edu/impacteffects/

https://www.armageddononline.org/asteroid.php

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_population_density

If a single 4 km fragment of an icy comet hit land, it would basically wipe out ~ 960,000 square miles. (by fire and overpressure) A land impact of this magnitude happens once every 80,000,000 years. If this happened in the US, you would expect 96,000,000 deaths.

If a single 2 km fragment of an icy comet hit land, it would basically wipe out ~ 240,000 square miles. (by fire and overpressure) A land impact of this magnitude happens once every 15,000,000 years. If this happened in the US, you would expect 24,000,000 deaths.

If a single 1 km fragment of an icy comet hit land, it would basically wipe out ~ 60,000 square miles. (by fire and overpressure) A land impact of this magnitude happens once every 3,000,000 years. If this happened in the US, you would expect 6,000,000 deaths.

If a single 0.5 km fragment of an icy comet hit land, it would basically wipe out ~ 15,000 square miles. (by fire and overpressure) A land impact of this magnitude happens once every 750,000 years. If this happened in the US, you would expect 1,500,000 deaths.

While the results of a larger than 0.5 kilometers comet impacting the US would be devastating, the US represents only about 5% of the world's land area. The probability of a 0.5 km diameter impacting the US is once in 15,000,000 years. The probable death rate is ~3x10-11 per year by a 0.5 km diameter comet impact rising to 2x10-10 per year for a 4 km diameter comet. The probability of dying from heart disease in 2x10-3 per year or 2x10-7 per year by getting killed by lightning.

I'm not worried.

Bob
 
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Jonathan

This is a very old idea going back at least to the early 70s. I'm in the business and I remember in the late 70s we (our company and the US government) were investigating the feasibility of deorbiting space debris and errant space junk with high power lasers, and to propel rockets and spacecraft with lasers for the government. The short answer was that we and other researchers demonstrated that while it could be done, the technology to build multi-gigawatt lasers required for the job did not exist, and would not exist in the foreseeable future.

Using lasers would actually be the cheapest way to go, but it ain't going to happen, and while many books and movies have been made on the subject, none have addressed the fundamental problems with the basic concept of destroying asteroids that may impact earth. What happens if we break it up or change it's trajectory and where does the debris go?

While we can assign asteroid-earth collision probabilities based on the known orbital parameters, the predicted orbits are only as good as your observations. This particular asteroid has been studied for several years, and now the best information is that the asteroid will miss earth by 18,000 miles or so. If we did have the means to break up this asteroid, which we do not, and which no one will have in the foreseeable future, we still would not be able to predict with any certainty where the debris would go, The same holds true if we attempted to alter it orbit, and indeed we could then cause a collision that would otherwise not have happened.

There is no way the Russians, or anyone else, can design, build and deliver any manned, or even unmanned spacecraft to an asteroid for $300,000,000 from scratch. That's probably about the cost of a design study to define the problem. To design and build an unmanned spacecraft large enough to deliver a nuclear payload that might be capable of altering the orbit of, or breaking up an asteroid would require 10 years and 30 billion dollars if you can use existing boost vehicles and existing nuclear devices. If an unmanned non-nuclear device were used, you're now in the 500 billion dollar range and a 20 year time frame because no one has launch vehicles large enough for the task nor the hardware to destroy or move an asteroid.

Pushed to the absurd, if you want a manned mission, your above 1 trillion dollars because not of the technology to support this type of mission exists or is even on the drawing boards.

Even worse, after spending all that money, you could not be assured that you would not send an asteroid into a collision course with the earth on a later orbit, because we would have no idea how the device would actually alter the long term orbit.

It's a nice topic for science fiction, but reality is quite different, and for what it's worth, IMO we have better, and much more important things to spend our money on than to worry about a catastrophic interplanetary collision.

Bob
It's a shame if true that moving Apophis is a fantasy. I wonder just how much delta-v would be necessary to put it IN ORBIT around the Earth or moon. The gravity tractor method appears to offer the possibility of altering the course of even a loosely consolidated object(e.g. comet or rubble pile) but current info would suggest that Apophis is an LL chondrite body containing as much as twenty percent metals. It's value as a source of metals and as a permanent space station is incalculable but would likely justify the costs of moving it. I'd love to see someone do a thorough analysis of the feasibility of this idea. Ted
 
It's a shame if true that moving Apophis is a fantasy. I wonder just how much delta-v would be necessary to put it IN ORBIT around the Earth or moon. The gravity tractor method appears to offer the possibility of altering the course of even a loosely consolidated object(e.g. comet or rubble pile) but current info would suggest that Apophis is an LL chondrite body containing as much as twenty percent metals. It's value as a source of metals and as a permanent space station is incalculable but would likely justify the costs of moving it. I'd love to see someone do a thorough analysis of the feasibility of this idea. Ted

Ted,

Then the Russians must know this also... I wonder what they are really up to? What is their true motivation? Is this a way to get weapons into space?

Jonathan
 
Jonathan Maybe they are just looking for some national pride. I think that losing the space race to the moon was the deathblow to the Soviet Union. It just took a few more years for it to die.
How about a new space race with America, Russia, China and India in on it? Ted
 
Then the Russians must know this also... I wonder what they are really up to? What is their true motivation? Is this a way to get weapons into space?

Answer.

Wake up people of Earth, its just a matter of time until some space fairing life-form happens upon our world and sees all the nice Hydro-Carbon molecules they can just take! Our women would become their breeding centers, and we (males) would just be exterminated. 'I come in peace' is crap. They are here to take and we as a planet had better get ready! And keep an eye on your governments as they would sell us all out in a hearbeat just to share in the new Alien power structure!

It's obvious that them thar Ruskies have already made firs' contact! :dark:

"Mr President, we must not allow a mine-shaft gap!"
Gen. 'Buck' Turgidson, Dr. Strangelove


:)
 
Wake up people of Earth, its just a matter of time until some space fairing life-form happens upon our world and sees all the nice Hydro-Carbon molecules they can just take! Our women would become their breeding centers, and we (males) would just be exterminated. 'I come in peace' is crap. They are here to take and we as a planet had better get ready! And keep an eye on your governments as they would sell us all out in a hearbeat just to share in the new Alien power structure!

Jonathan

HEY! I'm already married, and 'PAST IT'! You don't scare me! :D

Besides, after everything I've been through in life already, if a killer asteroid is going to hit the Earth, I'd consider it an honor form the Cosmos if if the 'white Line' came straight through the Center of my roof. We all have to die, and that's better than almost any other way I an think of (myself speaking for....myself) :)

As for the Russians....

Talk all the Economics banter and physics you want. Don't EVER underestimate them when they come together with a plan! ;)
 
As for the Russians....

Talk all the Economics banter and physics you want. Don't EVER underestimate them when they come together with a plan! ;)

WHAT? Did the A-Team defect to Russia? :y:
 
I don't know about anybody else but any alien better keep his tentacles to himself as up here we have perfected the Imodium D Q modulator
Cheers
Fred
who is now donning that aluminum hat he thought he could put away so long ago :)
 
A DOD report that I read somewhere on-line pointed out the potential danger of asteroid deflecting technology in that it could be used for military purposes. Simply pick an asteroid of a size that would not cause major worldwide effects that will pass near earth in order to minimize the amount of deflection required, then deflect the asteroid into your adversary. "Oops! So sorry! That was a malfunction."

Of course, there had better be some practice before this threat is > implied < in order to demonstrate the capability, otherwise one may wind up wiping out oneself instead of ones adversary. That may be a part of the Russian "altruistic" move to deflect an asteroid that isn't even going to hit earth.

You might also consider that just this past June the US military chose to stop reporting asteroid entries into and explosions within the earth's atmosphere:

https://www.space.com/news/090610-military-fireballs.html

This is supposedly because it divulges classified satellite capabilities info. However, that doesn't wash with me since they've already been doing it for years and all they'd have to do to avoid revealing the detection threshold of the NDS system is withhold reporting at some point _above_ the actual threshold.

All coincidences, I'm sure.
 
A DOD report that I read somewhere on-line pointed out the potential danger of asteroid deflecting technology in that it could be used for military purposes. Simply pick an asteroid of a size that would not cause major worldwide effects that will pass near earth in order to minimize the amount of deflection required, then deflect the asteroid into your adversary. "Oops! So sorry! That was a malfunction."

Of course, there had better be some practice before this threat is > implied < in order to demonstrate the capability, otherwise one may wind up wiping out oneself instead of ones adversary. That may be a part of the Russian "altruistic" move to deflect an asteroid that isn't even going to hit earth.

You might also consider that just this past June the US military chose to stop reporting asteroid entries into and explosions within the earth's atmosphere:

https://www.space.com/news/090610-military-fireballs.html

This is supposedly because it divulges classified satellite capabilities info. However, that doesn't wash with me since they've already been doing it for years and all they'd have to do to avoid revealing the detection threshold of the NDS system is withhold reporting at some point _above_ the actual threshold.

All coincidences, I'm sure.



Winston,

This raises the question:

If the military and government knew that an impact was probable, would they announce to the American public that we are all about to die?

I would hope not. Think about it:

If you knew down the the hour and day next month, that there was a 90% probability that an impact was going to happen, would you pay taxes? Would to recognize the power and authority that the government has over you? I know I wouldn't.

So there would be a complete breakdown on society. So what? We are going to die anyway, but what happens to that other 10% of a miss.

The impact doesn't happen and the asteroid 'skips' back out into space (I have seen with my own eyes a VERY rare Earth Skimmer)? Now you have a population that is out of control, refuses to pay your salary and is trying to take your job with a shotgun blast to the head! No, you aren't going to tell the people... better off to just die while you are still in charge.

Jonathan
 
Russians don't need no STINKING A-TEAM!!!!!:D

Axe,

There actually was an A-Team episode where the KGB needed the help of the A-Team:

The Say U.N.C.L.E. Affair - Russian agents enlist the help of the A-Team -
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0504219/

Here is the A-Team episode guide for future reference:

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0084967/episodes


How many MacGyver or Sledgehammer fans do we have out there?

the-a-team.jpg


You don't want to mess with the big 'mud-sucker' with the gold around his neck ... he is MEAN!

And before the offended postings to the mods start, 'mud-sucker' was the 'playful name' that Merdoc (the crazy one in the hat) had for B.A. Barrackas (Mr. T). It wasn't a racial pejoritave :rolleyes:
 
I could give a hoot who deflects or destroys an asteroid that's headed for us. I would say that kind of threat does not have boarders or lines without saying. If one is headed for us how can someone bring up budget lol.

The planet is woefully unpreparied for planetary invasion! We can BARELY defend our streets, how the HECK are we going to defend our skies!!!

USA, I would have to say is not the place they would want to start that lol! There is basically only a small group that have taken over defending our streets and skies. There is how ever jam packed to the hilt, Americans just dieing for something new to hunt lol! ET better be bullet proof lol :bangbang:
 
Will,

I would GLADLY subsidize a government plan to defend planet Earth from all space threats; this includes asteroid/comet impacts and invasions of E.T.'s.

The planet is woefully unpreparied for planetary invasion! We can BARELY defend our streets, how the HECK are we going to defend our skies!!!

Wake up people of Earth, its just a matter of time until some space fairing life-form happens upon our world and sees all the nice Hydro-Carbon molecules they can just take! Our women would become their breeding centers, and we (males) would just be exterminated. 'I come in peace' is crap. They are here to take and we as a planet had better get ready! And keep an eye on your governments as they would sell us all out in a hearbeat just to share in the new Alien power structure!

Jonathan

They're here already...YOU'RE NEXT!!!!
@ 2:11
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhF-Wfivfbg


bodysnatcherswp06.jpg
 
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Does this mean I am not going to get to :bangbang: any ET's :(

Reality, it's so regimented.

If we where to get hit with something big enough to do us all in. I am going to set off all of my rockets just before it gets here lol. No waiver haha! At least I will go with a big grin :D
 
Basic problem with diverting an asteroid for weapon use: it's a dooms day device with no realistic way to get what you want moved to where you want it to when you want it delevered. Just randomly hitting the Earth with a rock the becomes a terrorist act on a Grand scale.

Chemical motors would be obsenely expensive to get there and use, Solar sails used on the outbound leg of an orbit have a better chance at a lower cost of shifting a course that little bit to towards or away from Earth orbit. Not good for rogue asteroids.

But, all and all, I'm not worried, I don't believe they have enough money to pull this off.
 
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This:



And this:



poopcorn.gif



THere's our friend Dexter who flies in Bulgeria. A former Russian state that seems to have not got the message on what Freedom and non-restrictive Government is about. His trials to just fly at all shows us how easy we have it here. Like in my town the only law or rule I can find is an altitude limit of 700 ft in city limits.

I LIKE hearing from around the world, wish we heard from more places like China, Japan, heck, even Africa or India!
 
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Im afraid fred is allowed a little joke. Frankly a lot of this thread has alternated between puzzling,humourous,sane thought and sheer lunacy. Quite a conversational potpourri:)
Cheers
fred
 
Im afraid fred is allowed a little joke. Frankly a lot of this thread has alternated between puzzling,humourous,sane thought and sheer lunacy. Quite a conversational potpourri:)
Cheers
fred

Fred,

Here is an update with picture of the Asteroid, '243 Ida', that might hit us in 26 years:

https://www.physorg.com/news181376289.html

The Russians are going to hold secret talks to work out a plan to push Ida into a safe orbit... I only hope someone checks the flight software and makes sure miles have been converted to kilometers! :bangpan:

We could ALL be dead in just 26 years and counting!!! -
"RIA Novosti said the asteroid was expected to pass within 30,000 kilometres (18,600 miles) of Earth in 2029 -- closer than some geo-stationary satellites -- and could shift course to hit Earth seven years after that."


Jonathan
 
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Fred,

Here is an update with picture of the Asteroid, '243 Ida', that might hit us in 26 years:

https://www.physorg.com/news181376289.html

The Russians are going to hold secret talks to work out a plan to push Ida into a safe orbit... I only hope someone checks the flight software and makes sure miles have been converted to kilometers! :bangpan:

We could ALL be dead in just 26 years and counting!!! -
"RIA Novosti said the asteroid was expected to pass within 30,000 kilometres (18,600 miles) of Earth in 2029 -- closer than some geo-stationary satellites -- and could shift course to hit Earth seven years after that."


Jonathan

Secret talks Johnathan? Obviously not:)
Cheers
fred
 
Fred,

Here is an update with picture of the Asteroid, '243 Ida', that might hit us in 26 years:

https://www.physorg.com/news181376289.html

The Russians are going to hold secret talks to work out a plan to push Ida into a safe orbit... I only hope someone checks the flight software and makes sure miles have been converted to kilometers! :bangpan:

We could ALL be dead in just 26 years and counting!!! -
"RIA Novosti said the asteroid was expected to pass within 30,000 kilometres (18,600 miles) of Earth in 2029 -- closer than some geo-stationary satellites -- and could shift course to hit Earth seven years after that."


Jonathan
The comments after the above article are interesting as is https://www.physorg.com/news174152261.html which reports that refined calculation of the probability of collision with the Apophis asteroid in 2036 has dropped from 1 in 45,000 to 1 in 4,000,000.

The asteroid looks like this.

russianscien.jpg


It's hardly symmetric, so even if you could send something up to divert the asteroid, how could you come close to predicting where it might go? You have little idea where the center of mass is, the moments of inertia, the rotational speed, etc. You would have little confidence of where it might end up if you tried to alter it's orbit, or where the pieces might go if you blew it up. It is just as likely to increase the probability of a collision with earth at a later data as it is to reduce it.

What's really going on an attempt to get a significant increase in new funded space research. The old established Soviet Union institutes and their dwindling number of employees are starving for work as the government(s) is(are) not funding space research, and those who are employed by the government institutes are owed a lot of back pay. The scientists are competent, but the just isn't enough funding available for them to earn a decent living. Just think of what would happen to a lot of us here if the government cut aerospace funding by a factor of 2 to 10. It wouldn't be pretty but that's how it is in the old Soviet Union. It's really a sad situation.

Bob
 
What's really going on an attempt to get a significant increase in new funded space research. The old established Soviet Union institutes and their dwindling number of employees are starving for work as the government(s) is(are) not funding space research, and those who are employed by the government institutes are owed a lot of back pay. The scientists are competent, but the just isn't enough funding available for them to earn a decent living. Just think of what would happen to a lot of us here if the government cut aerospace funding by a factor of 2 to 10. It wouldn't be pretty but that's how it is in the old Soviet Union. It's really a sad situation.

Bob

This has frightening ripple effects as well. If the best rocket scientists of the former Soviet Union are unemployed, do we really want them taking well paying jobs working for North Korea, Iran, or Osama Bin Laden? Its been known to happen in other fields already. Scary stuff.
 
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