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DAllen said:
Go ahead. I already checked with the TRA insurance guru if this was okay and he said it was. The outcome of the flight will be the same if a kid pushes the button or an adult. We have kids push the button all the time at Michiana. Deal with. Scott (the guy in blue) sure looks like he's in arms reach to me.
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With go-go gadget arms from behind a tote behind the chair the girl is standing in front of?

DAllen said:
Yep, that is JMRC.
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DAllen said:
Too bad you had to disparage them in public like this.
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Yes, nice of you to point out the particular club and name names.
 
DAllen said:
I wouldn't be so quick to believe everything you see on the internet especially if pick1e flew with the club I think he flew with. There's 2 sides to every story and we're only hearing one...:eyeroll:

And that's all I will say about that...

-Dave
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Well, I was speaking on my own situation as well... not making an assessment of the veracity (or lack thereof) of his story...

Later! OL JR :)
 
luke strawwalker said:
Hobby shops are rapidly going the way of the dodo bird, and this is part of the reason why... Not that online retailers never have problems, but they usually have a lot more flexibility and seem to deal with them much better... Plus, I have yet to see ANYTHING at a LHS cheaper than you can find it online. Basically it boils down to a tradeoff-- price versus convenience... If you want to hold it in your hands, flip it over and take a look at it, see if you like it or not before you buy (without having to try and make all those judgments from a usually poorly-worded short descriptive bit of text and a thumbnail-size pic from one angle, sometimes of the object in the bag or package and barely visible) then the LHS is probably the ticket... and the "take it home with you right now" aspect. If you want to save a buck (usually) and are willing to wait for the post office or delivery company to mangle or lose your package, then online vendors are just the ticket... LOL:)

Course, that's *assuming* (and we all know what happens when you ASSUME) that your LHS has what you need or want anyway... most don't. I know from my personal experience of going to every LHS that deals with rocketry items in the greater Houston metroplex area, it's lucky if you find one with more than one back corner of the shop dedicated to rocketry-- anywhere to 4x8 feet of display area for all their rocketry products, to usually at most 8x8 feet... vary rarely a half-aisle of rocketry merchandise. Most of their floor space is taken up with RC planes and cars and helis-- that where the REAL money is! Even trains are going second-string and losing floor space... model railroading isn't as popular as it once was. With the proliferation of foamy park-flyers and RTF outfits, RC has literally really taken off... and with lipoly technology and better electric motors supplanting the need for gassers and glow motors, RC is easier than ever... What irritates me most about LHS's, beside their ridiculous markups on rocketry items, is that usually the employees are very disdainful when you ask a question-- they either don't know (and don't care), or act like you're TOTALLY wasting their time (even if they're just standing there BS-ing and polishing the display case with their butt) because they know that a rocketry sale is not going to be a high-dollar sale, at least not compared to the typical RC related sale...

For these reasons, I RARELY buy anything at a LHS... I OCCASIONALLY will visit one, if I'm "in the area" on other business, and have a little time to waste... it's nice to look around and actually "lay hands on" something you're considering buying. BUT, I kinda keep track of things I'd consider buying, and know the prices online versus the prices in a shop-- and they have to be pretty darn close for me to buy from the shop-- IOW, the "convenience factor" of laying hands on it and buying it on the spot and taking it home "right now" has to be "worth it to me" for the additional cost that the hobby shop will inevitably charge over the online vendor... and the "convenience cost" of having to do it online and then wait a few days to see how well the postal service or delivery service managed to mangle your package, if they didn't lose it first... Most of the time, the LHS charges SO MUCH MORE for the item that I simply cannot justify blowing the extra money versus just ordering it online and waiting and hoping it arrives intact. I'm all for supporting the local hobby shop, but sometimes their prices are like the item was gold-plated after they got it... Sorry but I can't afford to support them THAT much!

As for the club thing, well, it's a mixed bag... depends on what you like, I guess... Personally I like the more "laid back" approach... I don't like operations that are SO anal-retentive that they'd have a sh!t-fit about a little kid launching the rocket... (I personally like the misfire alley system-- I want to use my own gear, not be stuck with the club's stuff, doing it when THEY want it done-- BUT, it takes a SELF-DISCIPLINED group to make that work safely, and self-discipline is an increasingly rare commodity nowdays, especially in larger groups... hence the more centralized club launcher setup is probably better for a lot of clubs/situations). I can also relate on the "dogs running around without a leash" type thing...YOU may love your dog, but *I* don't, and I don't want the slobbering, wet cold-nose thing sniffing around or running around or jumping around on me and my stuff... IOW, keep the d@mn thing on a leash or leave it at home IMHO... Course kids *can be* just as bad if not worse... depends on the group I guess... I don't want other people's brats running around messing with my stuff or running after rockets they shouldn't and stomping on them in the brat stampede either, which I've heard some folks complain about with certain clubs/launches... I know if I had to deal with super-anal-retentive overbearing types, or dogs/brats running around unsupervised and with no sense whatsoever, *I* wouldn't be launching with a group like that... but that's just me... YMMV...

Anyway, sorry for your problems... *most* of the club people I've met have been very helpful and friendly, and are more than willing to go out of their way to lend a hand (or anything else you might need) to help you get your flight off and done right. But, people are people, and unfortunately a lot of people SUCK! There's always some people who get off on playing dictator and wanting to run everything like a little tin god, or walk around with their nose so far up in the air they'd drown if it rained, deigning to respond to anybody not in their little clique, or who just want to show up like "Bubba and Shirley leave the trailer park" and turn a carload of kids and dogs loose on everybody with NO supervision whatsoever to make everybody's life a living h3ll... and raise sand with anybody who DARES to correct their little varmints...

Better luck next time (and perhaps elsewhere...)

Later! OL JR :)
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The reasons stated here are the reasons I do not shop the locals UNLESS they beat the price shipping factored in. I visit hobby lobby and michaels but only with 40% off coupon in hand,

These same reasons as stated are why myself and the grand kids and wife fly alone. I take my collie dog and my german shepard along and they're not a burden to anyone. They are leashed and kept in control.

I use my equipment and I like it. We do not and I will not ever pay club/launch fees. We contend with no "see me" attitude self important people. We fly a lot and take notes and have to wait or pay for nothing there. We make lunch having a picnic and clean up all trash even if we didnt leave it. At our launches the kids DO insert the key, flip the switch, count down assertively instead of kids rapidly screaming 3-2-1 and press the button. Even the 5 year old has learned to check often for any possible weather fronts or thunderstorms moving in and look for low flying aircraft.

Thanks JR!
 
Target said:
The reasons stated here are the reasons I do not shop the locals UNLESS they beat the price shipping factored in. I visit hobby lobby and michaels but only with 40% off coupon in hand,

These same reasons as stated are why myself and the grand kids and wife fly alone. I take my collie dog and my german shepard along and they're not a burden to anyone. They are leashed and kept in control.

I use my equipment and I like it. We do not and I will not ever pay club/launch fees. We contend with no "see me" attitude self important people. We fly a lot and take notes and have to wait or pay for nothing there. We make lunch having a picnic and clean up all trash even if we didnt leave it. At our launches the kids DO insert the key, flip the switch, count down assertively instead of kids rapidly screaming 3-2-1 and press the button. Even the 5 year old has learned to check often for any possible weather fronts or thunderstorms moving in and look for low flying aircraft.

Thanks JR!
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Don't get me wrong, clubs are neat and it's fun getting together with a *good* group of folks and sharing stories, techniques, and stuff... BUT...

Regardless of *what* group of people you have, the odds are more than even that you *will* have *someone* who is a PITA or a downright A-hole... just goes with the territory...

If you have a tight group of good folks that is A-hole free, consider yourself very VERY lucky... Our old club had a guy who wanted to be "in control" of it, as President, with a BAD case of "little tin god" syndrome... so much so that he and another guy managed to basically cause the club to crash and burn... more interested in being in charge and arguing than actually doing the club business and conducting launches, or even playing the club charter with NAR so the club remained active (and insured, which as the flying field landowner was important to us-- when I found out the insurance was no longer in effect (since the club was not paid up and chartered with NAR and therefore with their insurance) I had to put an indefinite hold into effect until things were taken care of... and until I actually got the insurance certificate from NAR-- no more "the check is in the mail" BS excuses like I had been hearing for the previous month or more... Once I got the insurance certificate from NAR, I gave the "go" for launches, but by that time, all the club's regular flyers had quit and moved on, and the remainder, the "irregular" or "non-active" members who didn't fly anyway were all that was left. The club folded shortly thereafter. Later the club advisor and fliers formed a new club...

So, folks are folks no matter what area they're in, be it different hobbies, different walks of life, whatever... heck we've seen some of the same kind of stupidity recently from church people... no matter what it is, there's always gonna be a few prima donnas around...

Later! OL JR :)
 
Just some thoughts;
1. Did the child do a competant job of launching your rocket? Announcement, count down?
2. Our club will let a child, standing with the LCO, press the button for thier own rocket.
C. Dogs running around the range, not a good thing, for the club and for the dog.
D. Our LHS are only interested in RC. Our club has spoke with the owner several times that we would patronize his business if he would stock more rocket stuff and lower his prices a smidge. He said he was not interested.
5. Take a deep breath, next time make sure you press the button if there is no LCO. Clubs are a lot of fun, the people are nice, like everything else it may take a few launches to get in the mix. Also, like life outside rockets, there are all sorts of people, takes a lot of ingredients to make a cake.
 
pick1e said:
I would love to hear the "other" side of facts. Maybe I was hallucinating?

Here is a photo of my rocket being launched by a child with no adult within arm's reach of the controls. Should I go ahead and forward this to the insurer?

View attachment 138769

Shall I keep going? :eyeroll:
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Here is "The Other Side"... I manage a "local hobby shop". I go WAY out of the way to help loyal customers. I have sold stuff at below cost to keep loyal customers happy. A loyal customer is built by buying more than a pack of igniters every 2 months. I have driven to and opened up the store on a Sunday at 10PM to help a LOYAL customer out. I do not consider a "loyal" customer someone who spends a dollar or two here or there, while bitching about how the internet is cheaper, and trashing the business whenever he is inconvenienced in the slightest.
 
rokitflite said:
Here is "The Other Side"... I manage a "local hobby shop". I go WAY out of the way to help loyal customers. I have sold stuff at below cost to keep loyal customers happy. A loyal customer is built by buying more than a pack of igniters every 2 months. I have driven to and opened up the store on a Sunday at 10PM to help a LOYAL customer out. I do not consider a "loyal" customer someone who spends a dollar or two here or there, while bitching about how the internet is cheaper, and trashing the business whenever he is inconvenienced in the slightest.
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And you never know if that customer who stops buy every two months could turn into your biggest sale in months. I had long haul truck drivers and armed forces folks I'd see come in every few months and buy a magazine or some small do-dad and then after months and months, they'd blow an entire paycheck in one shot!

They always knew I'd be open when I said I would be! Come on... :facepalm: <-- Thanks! I always wanted to use that!


Jerome
 
DAllen said:
Go ahead. I already checked with the TRA insurance guru if this was okay and he said it was. The outcome of the flight will be the same if a kid pushes the button or an adult. We have kids push the button all the time at Michiana. Deal with it. Scott (the guy in blue) sure looks like he's in arms reach to me.

Yep, that is JMRC. I know several individuals in that photo and they are some of the nicest fellas i have ever met. Your experience is the exception not the rule. Too bad you had to disparage them in public like this. I can email Scott and a few of those other fellas tonight if you'd like and see what they have to say. Heck I think I have Scott's number here somewhere. Its only fair we get their side of the story...
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You are obviously a friend of theirs, he was a stranger relating his experience. Maybe a wee bit of bias there, don't ya think?
 
dave carver said:
You are obviously a friend of theirs, he was a stranger relating his experience. Maybe a wee bit of bias there, don't ya think?
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So defending my friends I have met in person and flown rockets with over someone posting anonymously makes me biased?

Ok...I am biased.
 
Ignorance is bliss, and I do not appreciate the attack with out a signature or the facts.

I am Scott Miller, I am the co-founder of the club as well as the president/prefect for over a decade and a half... in addition I am also a TAP and L3CC member so needless to say I have been around the hobby for a while with some experience. The waiver for that field is in my name so the liability does fall on me as the launch director and I take Safety extremely seriously.

In the picture re-posted here with out permission is me in the blue shirt and my daughter right in front of me; the ignorant comment fails to realize that our launch equipment is supplied with a dual safety lock feature. While my daughter was pushing the button she was not turning the power key or arming the panel; that was ME meaning I was obviously in arms reach. The other part of the story that seems to have mysteriously left out is I did all of the announcing with the exception of the count down that my daughter did before pushing the button.

I must say that I am a bit disappointed that you did not enjoy yourself at our launch as well as felt we did not provide you with the support you desired. Not knowing exactly who you are based on your handle so I'm just guessing based on the Comanche 3 reference... was this the same rocket that flew at our last launch after we fired up our generator so you could use the soldering iron we had on hand? Or the same rocket that we kept the waiver open late so it could still fly?

I believe I also mentioned at that launch that I had all sorts of options for air-starting on hand including e-match, thermite, thermalite, etc. Not to mention almost every flyer there will bend over backwards to help anyone fly. I was at the LCO table for 80% of the day so I was easy to find... especially in the blue shirt :)

Just as an FYI, I do take a great deal of offense when anybody claims that the club or myself have not offered support when requested. I take pride in the fact that we do everything we can to keep people flying; in fact I bet it would be hard to find any Michigan launch that myself or JMRC was at that did not step forward and help when we could. Hell I lug around full hybrid support to all sorts of other launches to help clubs that don't have the equipment and flyers that want to fly it... this includes a handful of national launches as well.

Please next time there is an issue or concern come to me right away and it will get resolved immediately; finding out via a forum that I don't monitor is not efficient or effective other then dragging names through the mud.

Sorry for the rant

-Scott


pick1e said:
With go-go gadget arms from behind a tote behind the chair the girl is standing in front of?




Yes, nice of you to point out the particular club and name names.
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JeromeK99 said:
And you never know if that customer who stops buy every two months could turn into your biggest sale in months. I had long haul truck drivers and armed forces folks I'd see come in every few months and buy a magazine or some small do-dad and then after months and months, they'd blow an entire paycheck in one shot!

They always knew I'd be open when I said I would be! Come on... :facepalm: <-- Thanks! I always wanted to use that!


Jerome
Click to expand...

Exactly...

I've seen this sort of thing in lots of businesses, not just hobby shops... It's a "chicken and egg" sort of thing... Businesses often take the attitude that "I'll only go the extra mile for my *LOYAL* customers; new customers or folks who don't blow a paycheck with me regularly can pound sand." A business can of course conduct *their* business in any way they want, but then they can HARDLY complain when they alienate potential customers and cannot grow their customer base.

Hostility and defensiveness is hardly a good attitude upon which to grow their customer base. But, as I said, hardly uncommon... There is the old adage that "the customer is always right"... too bad so many businesses forget that now-- then complain when people aren't "forced" to buy from them or support them.

We discussed a similar attitude projected by Apogee Components awhile back, with similar outcomes... If they are only concerned with their "core customers" that of course is their right, but they "turn off" myriad other potential customers, some of whom would become "core customers" if the business were more amicable to their new and potential customers...

I know there was an auto supply in our town that I would occasionally buy stuff from, but EVERY SINGLE TIME I went in there, the owner and employees would either ignore me while they BS'ed with their buddies, or acted like I peed in their Cheerios or slapped their mother when they DID get what I needed... Sorry but I don't put up with that... My money is just as green as anybody else's, and if you don't want to treat me equally with everybody else, and respectfully as a customer, then you won't be getting MY MONEY... certainly some folks have a bad day, but EVERY SINGLE TIME?? After giving them a few chances, I cut them off like a bad habit... they could go broke and beg on the streetcorner as far as I was concerned... I'll take my money someplace that knows how to treat their customers... As it turns out, they went under a few years later-- evidently I wasn't the only one who they treated that way, or felt that way-- the owner had to sell out to someone else who knew how to run a business...

About 15 years ago, we bought a new tractor for the farm... the local dealer 23 miles away, would only give us $3,000 in trade and wanted $21,000 for the tractor. Our dealer near our other farm 100 miles away would give us $6,000 in trade and only wanted $16,000 for the same tractor. Needless to say, the other dealer got the business. I didn't flaunt that fact, but when I needed to get some new filters from the local dealer, he knew right off that I had bought a new tractor somewhere, and asked what I bought and where, so I was honest with him and told him straight out how badly the other dealer beat his deal... He responded by touting some BS about how they had "protected territories" and that HE was entitled to that sale... I told him straight out, "well, if I couldn't have made that deal with the other dealer, I would have just bought a DIFFERENT BRAND and got a BETTER DEAL ELSEWHERE-- I *WOULD NOT* have bought from you anyway with that sorry of a deal, so you'd have just BOTH lost out..." I swear, the nerve of some of these dealers-- like they're somehow ENTITLED to screw you over and you're just supposed to take it, or like it...

I don't think so...

SO, guess where I buy 98% of my stuff now... here's a hint-- it's 100 miles away rather than 23...

Later! OL JR :)
 
KennB said:
...as we are in the well-known-as-friendly New England area.
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Actually the guys at CMASS are obnoxious, abrasive, downright mean to outsiders, and actively despise HPR flyers (that should thin the herd out a bit next time I am there and want to get to the big pad...):wink:
 
Spacefreak said:
Ignorance is bliss, and I do not appreciate the attack with out a signature or the facts.
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You'll notice that your friend DAllen mentioned the club, I didn't say who it was or any specifics. If you go back and read the whole thread, my complaint (See thread title) was about a hobby shop that wasn't open on a Saturday. My initial comments about the happenings at the club were a sarcastic response to a poster who implied that the club should have been more than willing to supply me with what I needed.

Spacefreak said:
In the picture re-posted here with out permission is me in the blue shirt and my daughter right in front of me; the ignorant comment fails to realize that our launch equipment is supplied with a dual safety lock feature. While my daughter was pushing the button she was not turning the power key or arming the panel; that was ME meaning I was obviously in arms reach. The other part of the story that seems to have mysteriously left out is I did all of the announcing with the exception of the count down that my daughter did before pushing the button.
Click to expand...

That's all well and good... but while we're on the subject do you want to confirm/deny that there was an unleashed dog running around molesting people? Do you want to confirm/deny that three unsupervised kids ran out and picked up my MPR DD with black powder on a timer? My response was simply defending an attack on me, suggesting what I saw was make-believe.

Spacefreak said:
I must say that I am a bit disappointed that you did not enjoy yourself at our launch as well as felt we did not provide you with the support you desired.
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Again, if you go back and read the whole thread, you'll see that I DID say I enjoyed myself. Since you are not around here on the forum much as you said, you need to know that my comments are in the context of everyone talking about how helpful and friendly and welcoming and safe their clubs are.

Do you want to confirm/deny that I stood around for about 15 minutes without being welcomed or acknowledged in any way before approaching you and asking you who to pay/register with so I could fly? Then when I did pay that person and register, I asked them about the things I needed and the response was "Oh, I don't know."

Spacefreak said:
was this the same rocket that flew at our last launch after we fired up our generator so you could use the soldering iron we had on hand? Or the same rocket that we kept the waiver open late so it could still fly?
Click to expand...

As a guest I don't know anything about that and nobody said anything to me about it. So you can't really put that on me.

I used your power but it was my soldering iron and materials. My power inverter isn't working and I didn't want you to have to fire up the generator again.

Spacefreak said:
Not to mention almost every flyer there will bend over backwards to help anyone fly.
Click to expand...

I'm simply pointing out that was not my experience. Maybe it is for regulars? As a guest, should I go around and pester everyone I don't know, whether they're a guest or a regular, about what they might have? Or should I just drop the issue after being given the cold shoulder, like I did?

Spacefreak said:
Please next time there is an issue or concern come to me right away and it will get resolved immediately; finding out via a forum that I don't monitor is not efficient or effective other then dragging names through the mud.
Click to expand...

Again, I didn't give the specifics, your friend did. All I did was post a photo, after being called a liar, basically, where I blacked out the name-- a photo which is publicly available on the WWW and accessible through Google.

Far be it for me as a guest to tell you how to run your club. But when you're trying to attract new members, a little introspection might go further than good ol' boy denial. I've learned far more about rocketry from this forum than from your club, but I guess I'm not allowed to express myself here now?

I never said that my experience was the rule and not the exception, but don't try to tell me that my experience was not my experience.
 
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H_Rocket said:
Actually the guys at CMASS are obnoxious, abrasive, downright mean to outsiders, and actively despise HPR flyers (that should thin the herd out a bit next time I am there and want to get to the big pad...):wink:
Click to expand...

Man did I just laugh my rear end off.........................
That was tooooooooooo funny...................
I'd expect that from Fritz..............
Boy was that a good way to lighten the mood a bit...............

Teddy
 
luke strawwalker said:
I've seen this sort of thing in lots of businesses, not just hobby shops... It's a "chicken and egg" sort of thing... Businesses often take the attitude that "I'll only go the extra mile for my *LOYAL* customers; new customers or folks who don't blow a paycheck with me regularly can pound sand." A business can of course conduct *their* business in any way they want, but then they can HARDLY complain when they alienate potential customers and cannot grow their customer base.
Click to expand...

Well put. For many years while I was in school I worked for a local hobby shop. The owner just can't wait to run people out the door if they're not a "regular" or worse if they have a little color in their skin. Not surprisingly, they are barely in business, they are only hanging on thanks to interstate business from the website I built them years ago.

But if you ARE a regular, you get to hear all about how Obama and the Chinese are putting them out of business. (Or Chinamen, as is the preferred nomenclature).
 
pick1e,

I'm one of the one's who has been extolling the virtues of flying with a club every chance I get on this forum. As a club officer and LCO at our monthly launches I know how hard we all work make sure everything comes off smoothly so the subtext in this thread has hit a chord with me. Any general thoughts on what what might be done to make new flyers feel more welcome ? As far as your specific situation, I hope you and Spacefreak can bury the hatchet (offline :)) and maybe you'll give them another try .

I'm afraid model rockets and rocketeers will always be the odd man out at most hobby shops. Just not a big enough piece of their pie and they are feeling a double pinch as a small businesses and competing for disposible income. No excuse for bad manners though.
 
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1) I patronize LHSs if they are even in the ballpark on price, simply because I like the idea of a place within a short drive having SOME rocketry stuff in stock. I know full well they may not be able to compete on raw price or selection of specialty items.

2) There is in fact a LHS about a mile from my house. Sometimes I just hop in the car and cruise over there to see if they have something I want -- or even just browse. Any time I was going to a shop more than about a gallon of gas out of my way I would call ahead and make sure I spoke to a HUMAN BEING to confirm they would in fact be open when I planned to be there.

3) I am not a member of the club in question, but I have flown with them on several occasions and usually found it to be an enjoyable experience. If I am attending a 'fun fly' rather than an organized contest, I would expect a lower level of formality on how the launch is run.

Pre-teen kids pushing the button IMO is fine as long as they actually know what they are doing -- when the countdown goes 5-4-3-2-1-0 they know to push the button on 0, not 3 -- if they started playing patty-cake with the safety key or something, yeah, I'd blow the whistle. Yeah, all provisions of the MRSC should be followed.


There are few enough operational clubs around these days I think I would try to avoid preemptively burning bridges with anybody.


Also, certain members of our hobby seem to have some extremely polarized political views on some subjects. I have generally found it's a real good idea to pretty much avoid these subjects.
 
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I have one thing to say about this particular thread, and the way it has transpired: :eyeroll:

Nothing like a good rant or three to drive people away.

-Kevin
 
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