Estes clay nose cone weight in Hi Flier kit.

My son and I are building the Estes Hi Flier kit this weekend and it's the first kit I've done that came with clay nose cone weight to add. The instructions are vague and make it seem like I'm supposed to add the entire amount of clay given, but it seems like a lot. Does Estes always give you the exact amount they want you to use or is there extra?

Thanks

Green Jello said:

My son and I are building the Estes Hi Flier kit this weekend and it's the first kit I've done that came with clay nose cone weight to add. The instructions are vague and make it seem like I'm supposed to add the entire amount of clay given, but it seems like a lot. Does Estes always give you the exact amount they want you to use or is there extra?

Thanks

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they give you what you need. use it all. follow the illustrated instructions. Then add it all into the nose cone.

I don't remember clay in the Hi Flyer....is this the XL?

My 18mm Hi Flyer did not come with clay and it flies excellent.

darthgriffin said:

My 18mm Hi Flyer did not come with clay and it flies excellent.

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Oh good, I just built the 18mm hi flyer yesterday while I was leading a building workshop. I didn't actually read the instructions, but I didn't see any nose weight to add. This thread had me worried for a second.
(I still want to pick up an XL at some point.)

For the benefit of understanding what you are doing (and teaching the kid a good lesson as well). The idea of the nose weight is to move the center of gravity (CG) further forward to ensure that it remains in front of the center of pressure (CP). In general you want the CG to be about one body tube diameter forward of the CP. If the center of gravity is behind the center of pressure, the flight will be unstable.

There are many ways to determine where the Center of Pressure is located. The first would be to recreate the model in Open Rocket software. Once the model is built in the program, it will show you the CP location. The second (old school) method to locate the CP is to trace the rocket onto a piece of cardboard, cut it out, and the CP is the point where it balances.

Determining the CG location is as simple as seeing where the built rocket balances with a chute, wadding, and motor loaded into it as if it were about to fly. If the CG is not sufficiently forward of the CP than you will weight to the nose (the clay) until that distance is achieved.

I have been lurking around TRF a couple of years now, and picked up stuff here & there. The HiFlyer has sometimes been known to fly unstable on a C6, thats why Estes now adds clay to the kits. Don't take the chance. If you got clay, add it. If you don't, get a little weight of some kind in the NC.

I've looked at instructions online and clearly there is now a v2.0 of the Hi Flier that includes nose weight.

BRAVO ESTES!!!!!!!!!! They finally got enough feedback regarding the Hi-Flyer being unstable on C6 motors and sometimes on B6 motors and added nose weight (They could have made it longer, but that would change the packaging and look of the rocket). I will alert folks on our range crew (myself being the primary safety-check person) that Hi-Fyers are no longer banned with C6 motors as long as they have the added clay nose weight.

They fly much higher when they are stable....and the customers are much happier. And then they come back and buy more and more and more.....

After you add the nose you can mix up some epoxy and pour down over it to secure it. I remember I had a rocket and the nose weight came loose. In fact it was the QUEST X-15

AfterBurners said:

After you add the nose you can mix up some epoxy and pour down over it to secure it. I remember I had a rocket and the nose weight came loose. In fact it was the QUEST X-15

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Crap. I wish I had thought of that before I closed the nose cone with plastic cement.

Don't worry about it. It may or may not happen. After it happened to me once all the rockets I build with nose weight (CLAY0 I pour epoxy in to added measure to secure it.

HOORAY! I love to see quality Estes products unbanned! Now what can they do for the Cosmos Mariner and SS1 E?
I wonder if the nose weight and C6 will offset the crooked, hot glued on fins with the crayon scribbled color scheme and some added cereal box stickers?
Stinkin’ performance robbing nose weight on the Hi Flier… Maybe it should be the Semi Hi Flier... but safe nonetheless.

Wait, Hi Flyers actually got so unstable that they were banned? Mine few fine on a B6, but I did loose sight of it so I put off trying a C until it was painted. Can I just tie a fishing weight to the NC?

A fishing weight may be off center, which is "bad". Drill a small hole in the base (without compromising the strangth of the shock cord attachment thingy), then make tiny snakes from modelling clay and insert it into the hole. Poke the snakes to the front with a thin rod or a BBQ Skewer. You can even pour in a tiny bit of epoxy to hold the clay in place, but don;t use too much as it heats up when it "cures" and can melt the nose cone. Clay weight way up front at the inside of the nose cone tip is the best place.

We even flew them with a "Clown Nose" of clay applied to the outside of the tip and then covered in masking tape.

darthgriffin said:

Wait, Hi Flyers actually got so unstable that they were banned? Mine few fine on a B6, but I did loose sight of it so I put off trying a C until it was painted. Can I just tie a fishing weight to the NC?

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shreadvector said:

We even flew them with a "Clown Nose" of clay applied to the outside of the tip and then covered in masking tape.

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Hmm, could have that have actually made them more aerodynamically efficient because of laminar flow and all that fancy stuff I don't quite understand? I always did think it was odd that they put an inefficient nose on a rock that was supposed to fly really high, and a much more more efficient nose on the Big Bertha, which is supposed to be slow and draggy.
Probably has more to do with marketing than with actual performance. (No disrespect meant to Estes, of course. )

Okay, now you're just talking crazy. Are you telling me that the short, blunted NC on a Bertha is more aerodynamic than the longer(to scale), pointy NC of the Hi Flyer?

darthgriffin said:

Okay, now you're just talking crazy. Are you telling me that the short, blunted NC on a Bertha is more aerodynamic than the longer(to scale), pointy NC of the Hi Flyer?

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YES. for the type of subsonic flying that our model Rockets enjoy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nose_cone_design#Nose_cone_drag_characteristics

Well I'll be... That's just too many revelations for one thread for one day. If you keep this up I'll have to log off and get back to work just to let my brain rest.

darthgriffin said:

Wait, Hi Flyers actually got so unstable that they were banned? Mine few fine on a B6, but I did loose sight of it so I put off trying a C until it was painted. Can I just tie a fishing weight to the NC?

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With my #2005 Javelin around 91-92 I used tie on weight for C motor flight. After so much added weight the streamer is useless. Dings and kinks on landing become more common.