congress messes up NASA as usual

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congress messes up NASA as usual
Figures. :eyeroll:
I'm guessing they will go with SpaceX, provided that this Saturday's launch goes well. (How come they get to launch when the drought index is so high and we don't? :()
 
It sounds like NASA is doing what they are told so how are they screwing up? They get their orders from where? Also if these commercial ventures are viable why the need for government money? Hows that private beyond what has already gone on?
Cheers
fred
 
I am a big fan of the private sector approach. I always felt that NASA should do the ground breaking for new systems, etc and then let the private sector pick it up an run with it in order to make it financially viable.

I would be shocked if Congress actually did anything. Other than try to make each look bad. And they are very, very good at that.:mad:
 
There is a strong contingent within Congress which wants to turn manned spaceflight over to the military lock stock and barrel. Black budget of course.
 
I am a big fan of the private sector approach. I always felt that NASA should do the ground breaking for new systems, etc and then let the private sector pick it up an run with it in order to make it financially viable.

I would be shocked if Congress actually did anything. Other than try to make each look bad. And they are very, very good at that.:mad:

What he said!
 
I feel Nasa has embraced the "Idea" of "Private" space exploration ect mainly just to keep the topic of space/rockets/ect in the news and the forefront of media to help bridge the gap between the shuttle program and NASA's future gov backed Deep Space Exploration and Manned Orbital Flight programs. They're helping SpaceX along as a "freindly gesture" but will dump them if anything goes wrong. And probably as soon as NASA gets gov funding back for gov backed manned missions.

I was wondering who would win the new "space race" with so many startup co's jumping into the mix,(mostly just ideas w/no actual hardware)
But then a month ago when i saw the groundbreaking ceremony for United Launch Alliance's new MANNED SPACE PROGRAM, I realized......THEY WILL WIN!
Given U.L.A.'s remarkable track record, the fact that they already have hardware,resources,contractors esablished that manufacture equipment,Engineers,scientists ect. not to mention they already handle Gov/Air Force launches and Top Secret expensive equipment is intrusted in thier ability to successfully launch it.
So if i were to bet on anyone "winning the new space race" it would definately be United Launch Alliance now that they have thrown thier hat in the ring!
 
There is a strong contingent within Congress which wants to turn manned spaceflight over to the military lock stock and barrel. Black budget of course.

What a nauseating thought.
cheers
fred
 
I am a big fan of the private sector too, but I think there is a lot of space exploration that has little or no potential for profit. If the U.S. or European governments don't do it then the Chinese or Russians will. That just seems wrong to me.
 
I feel Nasa has embraced the "Idea" of "Private" space exploration ect mainly just to keep the topic of space/rockets/ect in the news and the forefront of media to help bridge the gap between the shuttle program and NASA's future gov backed Deep Space Exploration and Manned Orbital Flight programs. They're helping SpaceX along as a "freindly gesture" but will dump them if anything goes wrong. And probably as soon as NASA gets gov funding back for gov backed manned missions.

Don't hold your breath on that as long as about 48% of the population goes head-spinning bat-$#$# berserk over paying one rusty nickel of tax money for ANYTHING.

Even when the economy comes back (if it ever does) any proposal for budget increases for space flight will get shot down by the "taxes are too damn high" brigade.

The only way will be through the backdoor of the military black budget.
 
Don't hold your breath on that as long as about 48% of the population goes head-spinning bat-$#$# berserk over paying one rusty nickel of tax money for ANYTHING.

Even when the economy comes back (if it ever does) any proposal for budget increases for space flight will get shot down by the "taxes are too damn high" brigade.

The only way will be through the backdoor of the military black budget.

You are right i think with the tax thing but a black budget space program is worse then useless. We do not need more and or better ways to kill one another. We have plenty.
cheersfred
 
I am a big fan of the private sector too, but I think there is a lot of space exploration that has little or no potential for profit. If the U.S. or European governments don't do it then the Chinese or Russians will. That just seems wrong to me.

True and I think the chinese can manage it but the russians pay for what is left of their program with giving rides to the west. I beleive LEO has plenty of potential for profit with satellite retreival and repair. Frankly private enterprise to me means you do it for money and on your own. Its the way I have run my business for 15 years now.
cheers
fred
 
Space is a complicated arena... unfortunately, politics plays FAR too big a role in it...

Someone mentioned that NASA is merely following orders... quite correct... if ordered, they will downselect to a single source provider. They have to answer to the Congress which controls their purse strings. BUT, the NASA Administrator and Deputy Administrator (Charlie Bolden and Lori Garver) are appointees of the President-- Lori Garver was his first choice, but alas she was deemed "unacceptable" to the Senate, who made no secret they wouldn't confirm her... Charlie Bolden, on the other hand, WAS considered sufficiently "acceptable" to the Senate to confirm his nomination to the position. BUT, make no mistake, this "commercially driven" approach to space is very much part of Obama's intended space policy, and it's surprisingly a good one... Congress, especially the House, is diametrically opposed to it because it would shake up the Space State constituencies and the political machine feeding them, via preferred NASA shuttle contractors, money going into specific NASA centers in various states, and other such government largesse to aerospace industry campaign contributors and lobbyists and their constituencies... Hence the House's VEHEMENT resistance to the 2010 budget proposal that killed outright, and the Senate compromise with the Administration which ultimately was adopted, that killed Ares I and Ares V and the Constellation program (and which nearly killed Orion as well, which hurriedly "morphed" into the MPCV under the compromise). This compromise ended up trading Ares I and V for the SLS, which was basically a return to the original plans for the Ares V before the so-called "1.5 launch solution" using Ares I really screwed up the works... BUT, with SLS not even going to be available for test flights until the end of the decade, (or more likely somewhat into the next) that, by default, leaves LEO crew launch ops to ISS up to either 1) the international partners (Russia) or 2) commercial providers in the US. Congress doesn't like the idea of commercial because they intrinsically know that commercial operations are going to be run SO much more efficiently that when they DO succeed (and no it won't be overnight, or easy, but they will eventually) that it's going to spell the end for the "gov't designed and contractor built" gov't/big aerospace contractor arrangement... which provides a lovely revolving door between gov't and industry, as well as all that nice lobbying money and such, influence peddling, campaign contributions, etc... it will upset the applecart. This is EXACTLY the same reason why, when after Columbia when the decision to retire shuttles and replace them with a CEV capsule and expendable launcher, when it became apparent the front-runners for the job were going to be the existing but modified EELV's, Congress was up in arms... and through some political tradeoffs managed to have removed then-NASA Administrator Sean O'keefe and Admiral Steidle, who came up with the "spiral development" concept of creating first a capsule, launching it existing rockets, adapting them into higher payload capacities, then developing payloads, and doing the entire program in small, achievable, affordable, simple steps building on one another over time toward the ultimate goal. Congress demanded a "shuttle derived" solution, to keep the existing "shuttle gravy train" of contractors and various NASA center pecking order pretty much intact to the extent possible, even if it wasn't affordable or desirable as a solution... Hence the appointment of Mike Griffin as NASA Administrator under Bush II, who immediately switched gears to an "all shuttle derived" solution for shuttle replacement... which became Constellation, which subsequently spun its wheels for over half a decade and ultimately foundered and was canceled early in Obama's Administration (and rightfully so, I might add).

SpaceX has done some wonderful work... sure they're just starting out, but they've delivered two new vehicle designs (Falcon 1 and Falcon 9), an unmanned cargo capsule (Dragon), new engines (Merlin I-C and the airlit Merlin upperstage vacuum engine) for less than the pre-development work that was done on Ares I and Orion... FAR less, in fact... They've proven that space CAN be cheaper if it's streamlined into an integrated organization with motivation to cut the gov't red tape and eliminate the contractor overbilling and delays as much as possible, which are hallmarks of the NASA/contractor cost-plus contract methods NASA has been using all these decades. SpaceX still has a lot to prove, and I don't want to be accused of being a fanboy, because I'm not... but they have a good record so far and I certainly hope their success continues!

Orbital has done some good work, though their success is marred by incidents such as payload shrouds on their launch vehicles failing to separate, dooming at least two NASA payloads. They're also further behind than SpaceX, who has demonstrated their rocket and Dragon capsule in an actual orbital flight and recovery. Orbital is probably at least that much further behind on any contemplation of manning their Cygnus ISS COTS resupply vehicle...

ULA's CST-100, borrowing heavily from the Orion/MPCV design, should be a fairly straightforward contender. ULA also has the advantage of a well-proven launch vehicle in their Atlas V rocket, which is to be the launch vehicle for the CST-100. Modifications of the Atlas V should be pretty straightforward since the engines, the Russian RD-180's, were originally designed for use on a manned vehicle (albeit in a different configuration). ULA would probably be the front-runner head-to-head against SpaceX, but SpaceX also brings the advantage of fresh ideas, having not been operated for decades as a government cost-plus contractor feeding at the gov't trough...

Dreamchaser is an interesting shuttle-like crew vehicle, but it hasn't flown yet and is still years away from flying. It too would fly on the Atlas V. While an interesting idea and probably practical if proven that it works reliably, it's also riskier and probably further out than the other contenders, IMHO.

ATK's cobbled-together entry in CCDev (Commercial Crew Development) hasn't gained much traction, being a cheap retread of the Ares I design, cobbling an Ariane V core vehicle liquid stage on top of the five-segment Ares I solid rocket motor first stage from Ares I. ATK recently trotted out their capsule design, based on composite pressure vessel designs they constructed prototypes of and studied for NASA as possible weight-saving substitutes for the aluminum-lithium pressure vessel of Orion. Having a basic pressure vessel is a LONG way from having an actual functioning spacecraft... it's like the difference between having the basic stripped body shell of a car sitting in the garage and having the engine, transmission, electrical systems, engine control computers, chassis electronics, and all the supporting suspension and drivetrain components installed and working reliably... or comparing a bare engine block to a fully complete, tuned, and balanced racing engine that's been dyno tested. I don't put much stock in ATK's ability to make this kludge work, but I don't have a problem with them trying... who knows, they might surprise everybody... stranger things have happened.

This whole mess is basically Congress trying to "manipulate the process" by injecting themselves in such a way so they can leverage the outcome for political gain. The space program is SUPPOSED to be about exploring space-- not about political clout and kickback here on Earth... BUT, unfortunately, NASA was born into such an atmosphere and operated within it all these decades, and probably will die in such an atmosphere...

When/if commercial truly succeeds, it will be a HUGE blow to the gov't control of aerospace and the need for lobbying and kickbacks and stuff that keeps the space money flowing into the various preselected states and companies... and it will immediately call into question the need for large, expensive, multi-decade programs like SLS to build HLV boosters under the old cost-plus NASA design/contractor built government controlled system, with all the political benefits that entails. Reducing NASA to the role of advisor and seed money provider and ultimately paying customer rather than design and contract awarding controlling agency at the behest of the federal government would jeopardize this lucrative arrangement that exists now under cost-plus, both to the political players on the Hill and to the big existing aerospace contractors.

Someone mentioned, "well, if they're commercial, let them develop it and NASA can buy it... why the gov't money?" Simply because space systems are not new cars-- the market is very small (even for unmanned commercial launchers; for manned systems its an order of magnitude smaller!) and the systems are SO expensive to design and construct that companies have been historically unable to get sufficient investment capital to afford the design and development phase... in short, there are MUCH less risky and more highly profitable investment opportunities in much shorter time spans than investing in space booster or spacecraft development, hence the money flows into those "sure things" rather than risky space ventures that won't pay off for years or decades if ever. It's much like the military's means of procurement... the Air Force (or whatever service) doesn't design their new bomber or tank or weapon system or whatever, they merely assess the needs and desires for the new system and how it would work and integrate with the existing weapon systems, transportation, logistics, operations, weapon systems, ancillary systems, etc. and then issue the requirements, and put it out to bid in industry. They then receive the bids from industry as proposals, evaluate them, and select a few for design and development. These prototypes are then tested and the "winner" selected for production. Sure, there's some "preferences" that come into play, political considerations and such, that influence the choices made of who the winner turns out to be... but it's a more transparent process that produces better results than the "NASA designs it, contractors build it under cost-plus contracts" outmoded model that NASA uses, that hearkens back to the beginning of the space and missile age when NOBODY really knew how to design or build a missile or rocket and its systems, but a select few experts, and as such most of the design and development HAD to be done by this small group, who then turned the designs over to aerospace contractors to build... The gov't pays for these prototypes via development contracts, because the sheer costs of the systems design and prototype construction is beyond the means of most industry players to pay... especially for a system that will, for quite some time, probably only have ONE single customer... Uncle Sam, and perhaps a few more later on to selected Allies via arms sales abroad to foriegn governments.

It's HIGH time for NASA to get out of the design and rocket building business and simply issue requirements to industry, for them to bid and submit their designs to NASA for scrutiny. NASA can then assess the merits of the designs and downselect for further development or award the contract for a sole prototype system development at that time... similar to identical to how the Armed Services obtain their new systems... THAT is what Congress is trying to stop...

later! OL JR :)
 
True and I think the chinese can manage it but the russians pay for what is left of their program with giving rides to the west. I beleive LEO has plenty of potential for profit with satellite retreival and repair. Frankly private enterprise to me means you do it for money and on your own. Its the way I have run my business for 15 years now.
cheers
fred

Satellite retrieval and repair isn't going to cut it... it was one of the reasons shuttle was originallyd designed and built, and the fallacy of that argument has been well proven... the ONLY time shuttle was cost-effective in retrieval/repair of satellites was due to launch failures, mostly to geosynch orbit, which stranded the intact satellite in a useless LEO for which it was not designed. No small part of these failures were due to the satellites being launched on the shuttle in the first place! Usually by the time a commercial satellite is in a position to need repair, when one factors in the costs of repairs on orbit or returning the satellite to earth for repair and then relaunching it into orbit again, it would simply be cheaper and more effective to build a new satellite incorporating the latest technology with vastly increased capabilities rather than attempting expensive repair and relaunch of an antiquated satellite. This is the very factor that proved shuttle repair/retrieval of satellites to be uneconomical. Even Hubble, supposedly shuttle's "crown jewel" "proving" the utility of in-space satellite repair, is at best a wash... shuttle repair missions cost SO much that basically it would have been cheaper to simply launch a duplicate of Hubble with whatever improvements you want to incorporate into it via expendable unmanned booster. That is why there are NO plans for vehicles to retrieve satellites or other payloads from orbit (other than what can be stuffed in a Dragon capsule for the return trip) and basically virtually no repair capabilities being planned for manned vehicles for the foreseeable future. It's simply uneconomical.

Now, there MIGHT be a viable market for unmanned tugs/ satellite refueling vehicles capable of flying up to a a satellite that is otherwise functioning well, but is about to deplete its station-keeping orientation manuevering jet propellants (usually hydrazine) and refuelling such satellites to extend their useful lives until the electronics themselves fail or become obsolete... but this is a far cry from "satellite repair, servicing, capture, or return" capabilities.

Just sayin'... Later! OL JR :)
 
I am a big fan of the private sector too, but I think there is a lot of space exploration that has little or no potential for profit. If the U.S. or European governments don't do it then the Chinese or Russians will. That just seems wrong to me.

Quite correct... Basically I don't see a lot in space as being economically justifiable, IE PROFITABLE... we've been reading about planned orbiting "space factories" for decades now, basically since before shuttle ever first flew. NOTHING has come of it. I remember all the hoopla of the 80's with new "space materials", "space alloys", and "space pharmaceuticals" that were going to be produced on shuttles, or onboard manned mini-stations or man-tended automated platforms visited periodically by shuttles, providing transport of raw materials to them and bringing back finished products, with the astronauts providing service calls during the transfers... Then the same old swan songs during the 90's, about using Space Station Freedom for research and production of new alloys and drugs and such and massive amounts of research into materials and drugs, which were used to justify the ENORMOUS expenditures made on SSF (which became ISS) and even the plans of MirCorp to buy Mir from the Russians and turn it into a commercial space material production and research facility with a tourist element as well... NONE of it EVER came to pass... a few experiments have been done on SpaceLab, SpaceHab, and ISS, but basically industry never sees the profitability as being there to make such a venture worth the capital and risk... they can make more money right here with more "sure bets" investing in research or increasing production here on Earth without the risk of space ventures.

Space Exploration, in and of itself, is NOT going to be an inherently "profitable" endeavor. That is why it will remain in the purview of gov'ts to do for the foreseeable future... knowledge and exploration for knowledge and exploration (and a healthy dose of national pride's) sake... This is similar to the problem of "commercially developing" a spacecraft and booster system without ANY seed money from NASA or gov't... the market is SO limited and the expense is SO VAST that it simply isn't going to happen without either 1) the gov't seed money to do the design/development and/or 2) the gov't acting as an 'anchor tenant', in effect "buying" sufficient services or vehicles under contract from the provider to ensure a profitable return on investment. Lacking one or both of these virtually ensures it won't happen, because there is greater returns with less risk investing elsewhere. SpaceX and the other "nu-space" companies wouldn't have gotten as far as they have without "angel investors" willing to tie up fortunes in high-risk development with marginal profitability returns simply because they "love space" or whatever... but this hardly a 'profitable business model' that's going to "sell" to investors or a board of directors of a publicly traded company... there simply must be better guarantees of profitability.

The main hindrance remains, as it has for the entire history of the space program, the prohibitively high launch costs... when that nut is cracked, space will open up, just as the West did before it. It was physically possible to cross the plains and the Rockies to settle in the frontier back in the early 18th century, but little expansion occurred due to transport problem making trade virtually impossible, at least impractical as a profitable venture. Until the late 18th century and the solving of the 'transportation problem' via the Transcontinental Railroad, which made high-volume regular freight transfer profitable between the "frontier" and the East, advancement and settlement of the West was stymied, simply because wagon and river transport was incapable of profitable trade-- too few supplies and materials could come West and too little goods and ores and materials could be sent West, and the expense of their transport made it unprofitable. The Railroad changed all that. So will it be with space. We THOUGHT we were getting a 'railroad' with the shuttle-- what we got instead was a more expensive "steam-Conestoga wagon", expensive to operate and limited in capabilities. Until we get a REAL "railroad" system into space, we're going to keep bumping up against this "unprofitability" problem...

SpaceX has shown that cutting costs certainly helps... I don't know that they go far enough. They're positing recovery, refurbishment, and reuse as profitable paradigm... I'm not so sure... shuttle certainly proved that's not a panacea or a slam-dunk. There's been various concepts of minimum-cost design and minimum cost operations that have been studied, but never implemented, and personally I think that this is actually the best ideas to pursue for the immediate future, but sadly nobody really seems to be heading in that direction.

Later! OL JR :)
 
There is a strong contingent within Congress which wants to turn manned spaceflight over to the military lock stock and barrel. Black budget of course.

For what purpose??

Historically, the Air Force lusted after manned spaceflight capabilities (and their not alone-- read the summary of "Project Horizon" that the Army drew up for manned Army bases on the moon in the scale section) since before the beginning of the space age... but the practicality of it has always been lacking... Indeed space was the first "battlefield" to prove more and better suited to unmanned machines than to manned vehicles or weapons platforms... The Air Force lusted after the "Bo-Mi" (bomber/missile) "skip bomber" concept that eventually became Dyna-Soar (dynamic soaring) but which was ultimately canceled... basically it was a manned version of doing the same job as an ICBM at greater expense, difficulty, and risk, with all the drawbacks of both a bomber and a missile. Then they lusted after Manned Orbiting Laboratory (MOL) and Blue Gemini (Air Force manned Gemini vehicles) to go along with them... basically manned spy satellites in orbit... which, incidentally, the Russians DID develop and field... and which proved ultimately a less desirable substitute for unmanned spy satellites which could do the job faster, better, and cheaper... adding humans to the loop on-orbit simply increased costs, risks, added complex life support and return capsule systems, and humans on board bumping into stuff simply served to jangle the cameras and foul up the imagery. That is why the Soviets abandoned the idea in favor of unmanned spy satellites as well. Then, it was the shuttle... the plan originally was for USAF shuttles flying from Vandenberg into polar orbits, doing "once around" missions to overfly the Eastern Hemisphere on various spy missions and return to the launching point after a single orbit, which of course necessitated large cross-range capabilities in the orbiter to account for orbital precession as the Earth rotated under the polar orbiting spacecraft, bringing it back down much further west than when it launched... which impacted the shuttle design considerably and led to the design changes in the orbiter, when coupled with the massive payload requirements the Air Force imposed (both in weight and volume) which drove the shuttle from its original totally reusable conventional stubby-wing-n-tailplane design to the delta-wing design of much larger proportions, which basically drove the shuttle design away from the original intent of a low-cost frequent-flying totally reusable vehicle with minimal turnaround expense and time, to the shuttle we eventually ended up with which were NONE of those things! All shuttle basically proved is that a manned vehicle is a VERY expensive, constrained, and risky method to launch unmanned satellites better launched by unmanned expendable boosters, a lesson which the Air Force learned through bitter experience after the Challenger disaster, when its national security payloads, already backed up due to shuttle launch scrubs and faltering launch shedules due to the complexity and constraints of a manned spacecraft being the launch vehicle, was suddenly in the position of needing a massive unmanned launch capability, which it eventually found in Titan IV, after being in a pinch for a few years on smaller and older launch vehicles. When Titan IV ultimately proved about as expensive as shuttle launches, it was ultimately replaced by the EELV's we have today-- Atlas V and Delta IV. The Air Force's dreams of military shuttles overflying the Eastern Bloc countries at will, zipping up to inspect their satellites or scoop them up, even plans for flying up to and "tagging" their spysats by spray-painting the lenses on their cameras (you just can't make this stuff up! Truth IS stranger than fiction sometimes!!) all came crashing back to reality along with Challenger in 1986...

The Air Force has wisely abandoned manned spaceflight (as far as we know... perhaps ultra-high altitude spyplanes or troop transports capable of delivering squads anywhere on the planet within 45 minutes exist, but it's hard to see the justification for the expense and risks and difficulties involved). I don't see ANY realistic justification to turn manned spaceflight over to the military... In fact, I think it would be a considerable impediment to the military's mission in space...

Personally, I don't see a huge realistic supportable reason for continued manned spaceflight at all, actually. Exploration is certainly noble and worthy, but it's also TERRIBLY expensive and will remain so for the foreseeable future, and basically the gov't is unwilling to shoulder the costs. NASA is incapable or unwilling to do it on the cheap, so there's the impasse... ISS is of limited value scientifically and certainly not worth the MASSIVE investment made in it for scientific reasons alone... it's main reason for existance seems to be research into human microgravity health effects and their mitigation for long-duration spaceflight missions. Problem is, and it's quite ironic and would be funny if it weren't so sad, is that this research into long-duration spaceflights will be for missions that will be an order of magnitude more expensive than the missions currently underway... and which the gov't is CONSTANTLY balking at paying the price for... IOW, the gov't isn't willing to pay to develop a way to get our astronauts up there to do the research on our own... who can REALISTICALLY see this same gov't agreeing to spend MASSIVELY INCREASED amounts of money for VASTLY more difficult and expensive extended deep space missions to the Moon, an asteroid, or Mars... Heck, NASA can't even get funding for a COOPERATIVE INTERNATIONAL PARTNERSHIP MISSION to send unmanned probes to Mars, or for Mars Sample Return, which will be INFINITELY cheaper and easier to do robotically than a manned mission can ever hope to be, yet people still SERIOUSLY think all this talk about manned Mars missions in 30 years is somehow more realistic now than it was when the same talk of manned Mars missions was being made 40 years ago... it's amazing how well people pull the wool over their own eyes and see what they want to see, in spite of the forest of evidence to the contrary in front of them!

We can't even get our own astronauts to orbit, can't even agree to spend a given amount of money to develop the means to do so, we're cutting our unmanned exploration program to the bone and crippling the mission rate and capabilities for the coming decade or more, and yet folks STILL believe in the fairy-stories about manned missions to Mars in a couple decades... REALLY!?? I've got a bridge I'd like to sell... :/

Later! OL JR :)
 
I am a big fan of the private sector approach. I always felt that NASA should do the ground breaking for new systems, etc and then let the private sector pick it up an run with it in order to make it financially viable.

I would be shocked if Congress actually did anything. Other than try to make each look bad. And they are very, very good at that.:mad:



ABSOLUTELY... agree with this 100%+... Later! OL JR :)
 
Fred,

I think the implication is not that NASA is screwing up, but that our Congress has once again screwed NASA.
 
Quite correct... Basically I don't see a lot in space as being economically justifiable, IE PROFITABLE... we've been reading about planned orbiting "space factories" for decades now, basically since before shuttle ever first flew.
What if the marginal cost of 12t to LEO came down to $5million, on a week's notice, with a launch vehicle taking off from a runway?
 
For what purpose??

As part of the continuing corporatist conspiracy to militarize/decivilianize huge industries such as media and aerospace, put their budgets beyond public review or debate, and siphon an even greater percentage of the GNP to corporate profits.
 
What if the marginal cost of 12t to LEO came down to $5million, on a week's notice, with a launch vehicle taking off from a runway?

You talking about Skylon?? I'll believe it when I see it...

But yeah, reducing launch costs to those levels and getting frequent, dependable, safe service (within reason)... That would certainly open a few doors...

Later! OL JR :)
 
As part of the continuing corporatist conspiracy to militarize/decivilianize huge industries such as media and aerospace, put their budgets beyond public review or debate, and siphon an even greater percentage of the GNP to corporate profits.

Hmmm... interesting idea... I don't agree with it, but interesting... it's too roundabout a way of doing it...

Never attribute to a vast conspiracy that which is explainable by simple greed and lust for power and influence...

IMHO... Later! OL JR :)
 
I was not referring to a shuttle. I was wondering if one placed a small vehicle at the ISS maybe and just ventured from there. I do not accept that unmann do exploration is the only way to go. Air forces still do not use robby the robot for most critical missions and airliners do not use an AI instead of a real one. Human intuition and decision making processes still trump circuits in critical situations IMO.There is also the issue of placing people in other places so all our eggs are not in one basket so to speak. Manned space does need however to become a more international thing like ISS so one nation does not have to bear the cost and risk alone. Somebody dropped the ball big time when they turned down ESA for help with the development of a next gen manned vehicle.
This issue of private vs government development has always puzzled me. For years I have watched folks here attack Nasa for falling to deliver and mismanaging it's operations touting the private sector as the way forward. Now private sector seems to mean government funding new companies. To me private sector means just that with private funding for private business. This discussion to me is simply another extension the political negativity of the current American political climate. For what it's worth I like the space x soloution and the manned atlas. I think shutting down the competition now is like the decision our government made to have no competition for our next fighter up here simply picking the problem ridden f35. I think the strength of western democracy is competition.
Just my opinion
Cheers
Fred
 
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