BATFE visit today

"Ding Dong", "Who could be at my door this early?" It was a gentleman from BATFE to do a spot check on my magazine and records. He explained that they no longer regulated motors but still regulated igniters. He wanted to see my magazine, all in order. Showed him the igniters that I had locked up, all in order. OK, let's see your records.......O' Boy. I have my file but I knew that I hadn't logged igniters. We counted 5 igniters (for K motors) and he said to write them down, now everything is in order. We went over the acknowledgement sheet and checked off that he reviewed it with me, he did. Signed the papers and shook hands, "have a nice day".:handshake: He mentioned that his visit was because I will be due to reapply for my license soon and that I will probably be visited every 3 years. Took about 20 minutes, heck, when he left his car was parked in the street, he picked up my newspaper and brought it back to my door. So, it really does happen at anytime so you might want to check on your "stuff" and catch up on any records you have. All in all it was a painless experience.

I don't have a LEUP and as far as I know a civilian doesn't anymore to hold rocket motors and igniters. Are you a dealer?

I still have my LEUP for igniters and BP. Got visited about 2 weeks ago, very similar to cobra1336's description.

Not a dealer. Need LEUP for igniters. He even mentioned it was "boarderline?" But still required. I will always keep my LEUP and record everything.

That's ludicris. I will continue to make my own "motor starters" from Military Surplus field phone wire, Nichrome wire, Super Glue, and crushed antique 4th of July sparklers. The new sparkers are useless for this, has to be the old wire cored kind.

I just cut myself off from going off on a rant. I never got a LEUP through the troubles and I'm not about to get one now. Soon as they start inspecting matches storage then I'll comply. After all, matches are a more readily avalible source of ignition than a rocket starter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHijtYtfc08

It's just a matter of keeping things in order, if you do, there is nothing to worry about.

If by "matches". you mean electric matches, they are indeed regulated and require LEUP.

Guess you didn't watch the video....

dave carver said:

Guess you didn't watch the video....

Click to expand...

?????

jimzcatz said:

?????

Click to expand...

you are supposed to watch the video he posted: this one!
[YOUTUBE]QHijtYtfc08[/YOUTUBE]

Just a quick question about the subject in case I ever do decide to keep regulated items.

If I do all of the paperwork, have proper storage etc, what happens when a spot inspection happens and you're at work? Do you get a notice that says you missed it (like a UPS package delivery notice) and have to make sure you're available at a specific day/time or what? I assume most of the inspections would happen between 7:00 am and 6:00 pm and I'm simply not typically available during the week at those times. Also, if my wife were home and I was not, could she go through it with them?

No comments about BATFE specifically, but I actually do agree with the concept of spot checking things that are regulated, so I'm not arguing against the idea, but wondering how it is actually executed if you happen to have a day job (that sometimes requires travel!!!).

Thanks for any input.

Glad other's inspections have gone well recently.

Sandy.

I have enough of this sorta crap related to the farm... NO WAY am I going to do anything REQUIRING certifications, memberships, licenses, inspections, and all that other CRAP for a HOBBY...

That's why I have NO interest in HPR...

I'll just stick with LPR/MPR...

Later! OL JR

I had no idea you guys in the USA had to go through this !

These guys can just show up ,unannounced ,without calling you first ?

Sorry to hear about that.


Paul t

sodmeister said:

I had no idea you guys in the USA had to go through this !

These guys can just show up ,unannounced ,without calling you first ?

Sorry to hear about that.


Paul t

Click to expand...

Well, the RCMP can do the same thing with probable cause, but I think they probably have better things to do than inspect a rocketry hobbyist.

GDJ said:

Well, the RCMP can do the same thing with probable cause, but I think they probably have better things to do than inspect a rocketry hobbyist.

Click to expand...

Really ,to check what ? People will open their doors to almost anybody these days.Just seems like too much regulation over nothing really.Oh well,the law is the law I suppose.


Paul T

sodmeister said:

Really ,to check what ? People will open their doors to almost anybody these days.Just seems like too much regulation over nothing really.Oh well,the law is the law I suppose.


Paul T

Click to expand...

Fall out from the September 11 attacks and the OKC bombing. If, God forbid, Canada was to ever see similar terrorist attacks on its soil, then you might start to see some of the same types of responses.

I doesn't sound like this visit was any big deal. But I'm curious: at what point do agents become interested in one's igniter stash? If you have, say, a couple packs of Copperheads, do you have to go through all of the rigamarole of obtaining an LEUP, buying an approved Type 4 magazine and locating it some specified distance away from the nearest occupied dwelling, covered by at least 20 feet of packed earth and placed under 24 hour armed guard, etc., etc?

We also just dont have the same ratio of police folks to non police folks. A mixed blessing I suppose. It sounds like the BATF guys are just trying to do their job.
Cheers
fred

I don't get it...

When you sign up for an LEUP there is wording in the application that you agree to spot checks for compliance. OK, if you don't want spot checks, don't get a permit. Then decide if you want to break the law with respect to items that are controlled. If not, do as Luke says, fly LPR/MPR without using e-matches & BP for dual deploy. A lot of people have a boatload of fun that way.

As far as I can tell there is no right to fly HPR documented anywhere. Yes, it is intrusive and I think the law is silly. However keep in mind the law was written with explosives in mind, we just got caught up in it and nobody seems to think rewriting the law for the benefit of a handful of enthusiasts is worth the effort.

Pyrodex is not regulated. Estes ignitors are not regulated (nor are Quest Q2G2 ignitors). 1/4" cardboard launch lugs and 5-minute epoxy are not regulated, nor are latex tubes and plastic zip-ties. Therefore I see no reason to believe that the law is standing in the way of anyone who wants to use well-proven electronic deployment techniques in HPR. I don't think ematch regulation will ever go beyond the pressure already put (inconsistently) on specific ematch and ignitor manufacturers, because there isn't any reasonable and enforceable place to draw the line that could allow Estes motors to be sold at all, to say nothing of dryers, outdoor grills, and butane lighters. So I have no fear of the feds coming down on me for deploying a parachute in a high power rocket with pretty much the same materials and methods that I ignite an Estes motor at the park with my 6-year-old. Could Estes ignitors be abused, and used for terrorist activities? Sure, and they already have been for years. But you still see Estes motors and ignitors sold at Walmart with no LEUP check.

The basic SOP is don't use ignitors for bad things, don't ask for permission, and everyone will get along fine. The BATFE doesn't want to open up an Estes ignitor can of worms any more than we do.

No I wasn't aware that he was coming and if he missed me I'm sure I would of recieved notice in one way or another to set a time.
It was no big deal, as someone said he just came over and did his job. It was simple and quick.

Things could have changed, but back a few years ago one of the questions on the LEUP application was for you to list your "Business Hours". Inspections would only occur during your normal business hours. So if you are not home during the day, but get home at 6 PM, then list your business hours as 7pm - 9pm.

sodmeister said:

I had no idea you guys in the USA had to go through this !

These guys can just show up ,unannounced ,without calling you first ?

Sorry to hear about that.

Click to expand...

I remember a time, back in the day, when we Canadians had to seek official approval for our LP launch sites, applications for which had to include a map with distances determined to the nearest buildings, main highway, railway and bushland (beware gangs of rocket eating trees!). And don't even think about applying for approval for a site that was within 10 miles of an airport! Oh yes, and all launches by us younguns had to be under the direct control of a "Licensed Firing Supervisior". I am forever grateful to my 7th grade teacher for stepping up to the plate and taking the requisite exam, just so that our informal little rocket club could fly our Astron Alphas all legal like!

Let's hope that degree of regulation of our demonstrably safe hobby and sport never returns here in the Great White North.

sodmeister said:

These guys can just show up ,unannounced ,without calling you first ?

Click to expand...

being an ex-pat yank who now lives up here, you have no idea.

DavidInNS said:

Did you really just equate using that reason with someone checking inventory and someone participating in the extermination of over 6 million people? Or is there something there I missed that didn't come through in text?

Click to expand...

No you got it right.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

kj

I never studied law

And the thread was technically over after post #18.

Sandy H. said:

If I do all of the paperwork, have proper storage etc, what happens when a spot inspection happens and you're at work? Do you get a notice that says you missed it (like a UPS package delivery notice) and have to make sure you're available at a specific day/time or what? I assume most of the inspections would happen between 7:00 am and 6:00 pm and I'm simply not typically available during the week at those times. Also, if my wife were home and I was not, could she go through it with them?

Click to expand...

On the application is a section where you list your 'business hours'. For me, this is 2 to 4 PM weekdays. Set your business hours for when you are at home. They will schedule all visits for this time. I have always been called to set up an appointment for inspections. I doubt you will be visited without an appointment unless they believe you are in a dangerous violation. They will deal only with the authorized persons you have listed on your application and permit. All authorized persons will have to undergo a background check, fingerprinting, etc.

Thanks to cobra1336, davel and RocketJunkie for answering my questions. I enjoy participating on forums where users interact with each other on pertinent subjects.

Sandy.

it is the ATF's business, to be in your business, when your business, is in explosives.

r1dermon said:

it is the ATF's business, to be in your business, when your business, is in explosives.

Click to expand...

That's just it...no one here is in the business of explosives...