Orion Starliner RC RG, big and small versions

The Rocketry Forum

Help Support The Rocketry Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
I flew the Orion Starliner twice on Friday at Hellfire-24. It flew great! I think I like this rocket glider better than the smaller ones.

The wind at ground level was essentially zero and both flights were essentially straight up. I might have tried to guide the Orion during boost on the first flight, but it seemed very sensitive to me. I think on the second flight I avoided the stick on boost. The second flight was better, but as usual I could not get the glider to come back to me. There were times on the second flight that the glider seemed to hang in the sky forever. (On one of the attached photo's there is a small black dot above the flight line gazebos. That is the Orion.) On the first flight the glider seemed to land as light as a feather. So, I figure the weight must be pretty good. The second flight landed behind the flight line, so I couldn't see it, but there was no damage on either flight.

I had very large sheets of depron, so the entire wing was just 2 sheets of 6 mm depron, one glued on top of the other. When I was gluing the 3/16" wing spars in place I used a little bit of CA that was not foam safe, so I needed a little bit of epoxy by the aft elevon cut-outs, but the flight weight was still good. I did have some trouble getting the 3/16" rods in. I am wondering if 1/8" rods would be better. I've got plenty of depron left. I am interested in making another glider this size.

On these small composite motors I put a little bit of thermalite in the motor along with the igniter. I have had no ignition problems. Our club motor vendor says that the G12 motor reloads the 32 mm case used in the Orion are getting scarce. I bought all 4 reloads that he had available. I am wondering if I hold the world's supply of these reloads.
 

Attachments

  • 20190802_HF24_01.jpg
    20190802_HF24_01.jpg
    79.1 KB · Views: 90
  • 20190802_HF24_02.jpg
    20190802_HF24_02.jpg
    48.2 KB · Views: 85
  • 20190802_HF24_03.jpg
    20190802_HF24_03.jpg
    38.8 KB · Views: 88
  • 20190802_HF24_04.jpg
    20190802_HF24_04.jpg
    62.9 KB · Views: 80
That's great, I think you are the first person to actually complete one and fly it using the plans. It looks fantastic by the way.

For the 3/16" tube, for the spar, that is correct for the wing span and loading, 1/8 is not sufficient. For recessing the spar into the wing, you have to V notch both sides of the sheeting with an exacto, and drag the tube through the v notch to make a recess for it to fit, before you glue the halves together. On mine I did not need to notch both sides but you may need to depending on how deep you go.

Be careful with the thermalite as you don't want something to block the tiny nozzle on these and cause an overpressure, I've never had an issue with the stock igniters with these motors lighting every time when installed properly. I've used thermalite igniters with wire wrap wire in a pinch when I didn't have an igniter and they work but I prefer to use the smaller stock igniters.

For the reloads, your dealer is spreading rumors that are not true. Aerotech will mfg these reloads when ordered, they are not discontinued. They may only do one or two runs a year, I'm sure the demand is quite low.

As for the boost and returning to the flight line, you are never a victim of an RC rocket glider, they go exactly where you do or do not tell them to go. You must control them on boost and put them where they need to go. If there is some wind up high, boost upwind so that it will blow you back over the flight line. Keep the model overhead and over the flight line or in front of you somewhat, never turn downwind, just make gentle s curves always into the wind and let the wind slide you back toward you till you are ready for approach to land. If you make a mistake and are downwind and need to penetrate, point the nose down a bit and get some airspeed, you may need to push and keep the nose down for a bit to make some headway.

Frank
 
If you think the model is very sensitive on boost, you can either 1)add nose weight to make it a bit less tail heavy, 2) use dual rate and set up your boost throws to be a bit less movement, 3)use expo so that throw around center is less but you still have full travel when needed at the extremes.
 
If you think the model is very sensitive on boost, you can either 1)add nose weight to make it a bit less tail heavy, 2) use dual rate and set up your boost throws to be a bit less movement, 3)use expo so that throw around center is less but you still have full travel when needed at the extremes.

I'll keep that in mind. Maybe I just need more practice or think about what I am going to do in advance before take-off.

I remove the plastic and the thin wire on the thermalite, so just pyrogen is going into the nozzle. One time I had an F10 motor that refused to ignite and a little bit of thermalite was the only thing that worked.

I had a third rail button the Orion near the forward end. Of course, that is the first button to disconnect. Perhaps it helped. It was not that difficult to align. I had a small switch to turn on the battery at the pad, which is very convenient. I have the battery in a compartment just slightly ahead of the servo's. I like the way the Orion lands, so I am wary of putting in any nose weight.

I have (electronic copy) photo's from Nadine coming, but it may be awhile before they get here. I will post them when they arrive.
 
My battery is also in a hatch just at the CG location right next to the receiver. I ran a wire to the front so I can put the battery in the nose when I fly it on the heavier single use 29mm G12 motors I demo'd.....
 
I did just get a dealer email from Aerotech saying that they were discontinuing the 32 mm RC hardware, not the reloads, but it looks like they're not going to make the casing anymore..
 
Balsa Machining Services does have the RMS-32/60-100 case in stock for $89.99. I am in no rush to buy, but it is in back of mind.

I like using the 32 mm case in the Orion, but I am curious about the 29 mm with the G12 reload. What is the case that you are using?
 
There is no 29 mm reload, that's a g-12 single-use 29 mm that they're trying to get certified. You could use a g25 in the 29 mm 120 case but that's a much faster boost
 
Here are some more pictures taken by Thom Olson of the second flight on Friday at Hellfire-24.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_7028.JPG.jpg
    IMG_7028.JPG.jpg
    14.1 KB · Views: 62
  • IMG_7049.JPG.jpg
    IMG_7049.JPG.jpg
    5.3 KB · Views: 61
  • IMG_7071.JPG.jpg
    IMG_7071.JPG.jpg
    5.2 KB · Views: 62
  • IMG_7081.JPG.jpg
    IMG_7081.JPG.jpg
    30.8 KB · Views: 63
  • IMG_7089.JPG.jpg
    IMG_7089.JPG.jpg
    15.2 KB · Views: 59
I got some more pictures today from Nadine. It looks just like Frank's Orion except it doesn't land at my feet. ;)
 

Attachments

  • HF819 1-7332, MR.jpg
    HF819 1-7332, MR.jpg
    56.3 KB · Views: 46
  • HF819 1-7333, MR.jpg
    HF819 1-7333, MR.jpg
    51.5 KB · Views: 53
  • HF819 1-7342, MR.jpg
    HF819 1-7342, MR.jpg
    27.4 KB · Views: 58
  • HF819 1-7356, MR.jpg
    HF819 1-7356, MR.jpg
    28.2 KB · Views: 58
  • HF819 1-7361, MR.jpg
    HF819 1-7361, MR.jpg
    29.5 KB · Views: 48
After flying the large Orion at last summer's Hellfire-23 I wanted another rocket glider like it. So, I am building something like a Concorde SST based on Frank's instructions for the Orion. Also, I'm looking at some of the plans for the Concorde in another thread.

https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/vintage-hpr-glider-wasatch-rocketry-sst-build.69295/

Keeping in mind Frank's advice not to get too heavy on this model, I modified the wing profile by eye-balling and over-laying the wing templates so that they are roughly the same area. The fuselage length and nose cone are the same as the Orion.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_1112.JPG
    IMG_1112.JPG
    38.7 KB · Views: 29
  • IMG_1113.JPG
    IMG_1113.JPG
    49.7 KB · Views: 30
  • IMG_1115.JPG
    IMG_1115.JPG
    54.1 KB · Views: 31
  • IMG_1116.JPG
    IMG_1116.JPG
    102 KB · Views: 29
that looks really nice the critical thing will be where the balance winds up naturally compared to the CG required and whether or not you have to add a lot of nose or tail weight
 
Did ypu wind up laminating 6mm sheets to double the thickness?

Yes, I've got plenty of the 6 mm sheets and they are large enough that I do the whole wing, so there are 2 wings laminated together. I used 3 spars of hollow graphite 5/32" dia. rod from Central Hobbies in Montana. I was thinking that the c.g. should be similar to the Orion. Possibly, I could use an estimated c.g. estimated from the SST plans, but my wing and length are not exactly the same. The overall length is the same as the Orion. Any suggestions for the c.g. would be welcome.
 
If you can measure the wing I need sort of the root cord the half span and maybe a couple of measurements in between so I can approximate and I can give you a starting point probably

Yes, I've got plenty of the 6 mm sheets and they are large enough that I do the whole wing, so there are 2 wings laminated together. I used 3 spars of hollow graphite 5/32" dia. rod from Central Hobbies in Montana. I was thinking that the c.g. should be similar to the Orion. Possibly, I could use an estimated c.g. estimated from the SST plans, but my wing and length are not exactly the same. The overall length is the same as the Orion. Any suggestions for the c.g. would be welcome.
 
I just checked the Dynasoar website & see that the Orion Starliner is no longer in production. I did find the assembly instructions for the smaller version but no drawings for making the wings/tail. I'd really love to build & fly the smaller version. So my questions are:
1. Are the dimensional drawings avilable somewhere?
2. Can the parts be bought somewhere?
The OS is one of the most elegant birds I have ever seen.
 
Thank you for the compliment on the design. I stopped making this kit because the templates were worn out but there wasn't a lot of new interest, so I tossed them. I don't make plans for my smaller kits because it takes too much time, I just have the templates I've made for cutting the foam. I stopped posting other plans I had because you can't get 6mm depron any more, there isn't a good replacement in my opinion, and without the correct foam your model would be too heavy, not stiff enough or too brittle, would require more nose weight to balance, more carbon reinforcement and likely not fly well. These are optimized for the components I use, I have a supply of depron for about 300 more kits. You can't just use whatever and expect it to work unfortunately. In the instructions for this kit the photos actually show flite test foam board that I tried, and it was crap, hard to glue to with lightweight foam safe CA, edges were a pain to seal and once kinked lost strength, it was also heavier. 99% of people don't have 6mm depron so I wasted a bunch of my time answering questions about can I use this, can I use that, can I use hot glue, etc, I had hundreds of downloads and not one thank you or photo of something someone actually built, it was a waste of time. I decided just to provide kits that I know I've tested with the materials I've used at a reasonable price.

Frank


I just checked the Dynasoar website & see that the Orion Starliner is no longer in production. I did find the assembly instructions for the smaller version but no drawings for making the wings/tail. I'd really love to build & fly the smaller version. So my questions are:
1. Are the dimensional drawings avilable somewhere?
2. Can the parts be bought somewhere?
The OS is one of the most elegant birds I have ever seen.
 
Last edited:
If you can measure the wing I need sort of the root cord the half span and maybe a couple of measurements in between so I can approximate and I can give you a starting point probably

Frank, the root cord is 26.75" . The (maximum) half span is 13" from the fuselage, so including the 3" dia. fuselage the wing span is 29" from wing tip to wing tip. The wing starts about 6.5" from the aft end.
 
Here is my older Stratodart which is similar, mid wing, delta, it doesn't have the double elipse but it's approximately similar:
I'm just modeling the wing, not the fuse lift or the part of the wing going through the fuse, in a shape similar to yours, long nose etc, I use 18% MAC which gives me a good liftoff CG, max rearward CG loaded ready to fly.

https://j.mp/3d3CAob

Here is yours, with 18% MAC for CG, note the cg location is 12" from the front of the wing where it hits the fuse,
https://j.mp/39W479a

Remember for the G-12 you don't want a liftoff weight any more than 27.5 oz with motor installed, or it just won't boost very high, your wing loading for this area is 10.6 which is quite a bit higher than I like, so this means you won't get a long glide, similar to the starliner model.

Frank
 
Here is yours, with 18% MAC for CG, note the cg location is 12" from the front of the wing where it hits the fuse,

Thanks, very much, Frank. I think I can manage this. I noticed that your required c.g. in the Orion instructions is 13" from the front of wing slot, so it sounds like I am in the same ballpark. Actually, I moved my G12 motor a bit forward to try to look more like the Concorde, so my motor mount is about 3" ahead of the Orion's. I am thinking that my final weight will be good, but I am taking my time building, so the final weight measurement is a little ways away.
 
I got decals for the Concorde SST from Sticker Shock. As mentioned before the design uses the same basic technology as the Orion Star Liner. The Concorde c.g. looks pretty good. It is about 12" back from the front of the wing. The full-up weight with loaded G12 motor, battery, servo's, the receiver, etc., came out pretty good. It is about 23 oz.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_1119.JPG
    IMG_1119.JPG
    44.6 KB · Views: 19
  • IMG_1120.JPG
    IMG_1120.JPG
    73.8 KB · Views: 19
  • IMG_1121.JPG
    IMG_1121.JPG
    111.7 KB · Views: 19
  • IMG_1122.JPG
    IMG_1122.JPG
    130.3 KB · Views: 20
  • IMG_1123.JPG
    IMG_1123.JPG
    94.2 KB · Views: 18
I got decals for the Concorde SST from Sticker Shock. As mentioned before the design uses the same basic technology as the Orion Star Liner. The Concorde c.g. looks pretty good. It is about 12" back from the front of the wing. The full-up weight with loaded G12 motor, battery, servo's, the receiver, etc., came out pretty good. It is about 23 oz.
Bon Chance!
 
Unfortunately, my Concorde SST, which was my own design, crashed beyond repair last Saturday (May 15, 2021). Surprisingly, my wife caught 2 still photo's of the glider after ignition. Shortly, after lift-off the rocket went straight up, but soon after about 100 feet or less the glider arced over upside down. I don't think I touched the stick at any time. The model flew overhead upside down and there was nothing I could do. My response time is just not quick enough. I looked at the G12 motor after the flight and I did not see anything wrong. The nozzle looked fine. I think the 2nd flight picture shows the glider just about starting to arc over. The battery clip on the micropeak broke. I think that Altus Metrum can repair it and they might be able to retrieve the data. I am not sure that they can. I tried to retrieve the data and I could not.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_1377.JPG
    IMG_1377.JPG
    104.7 KB · Views: 11
  • IMG_1378.JPG
    IMG_1378.JPG
    94.5 KB · Views: 11
  • IMG_1382.JPG
    IMG_1382.JPG
    105.9 KB · Views: 10
  • IMG_1383.JPG
    IMG_1383.JPG
    57.5 KB · Views: 10
Bummer looks in the photo like it just pitched back at you, probably just needed some down trim, these really need full pilot control on all phases of flight to keep on top of them due to wind etc, it's really hard to let them do their thing and then react afterward, sorry about the crash.

Frank

Unfortunately, my Concorde SST, which was my own design, crashed beyond repair last Saturday (May 15, 2021). Surprisingly, my wife caught 2 still photo's of the glider after ignition. Shortly, after lift-off the rocket went straight up, but soon after about 100 feet or less the glider arced over upside down. I don't think I touched the stick at any time. The model flew overhead upside down and there was nothing I could do. My response time is just not quick enough. I looked at the G12 motor after the flight and I did not see anything wrong. The nozzle looked fine. I think the 2nd flight picture shows the glider just about starting to arc over. The battery clip on the micropeak broke. I think that Altus Metrum can repair it and they might be able to retrieve the data. I am not sure that they can. I tried to retrieve the data and I could not.
 
Bummer looks in the photo like it just pitched back at you, probably just needed some down trim, these really need full pilot control on all phases of flight to keep on top of them due to wind etc, it's really hard to let them do their thing and then react afterward, sorry about the crash.

Frank
Yes, exactly, it did pitch back towards me. I thought about that today, if I had been collected and had some presence of mind, I could have used some down-nose. If I had given it some down trim early, I might have been able to recover the flight. I wasn't expecting this, so I wasn't prepared. This was my second glider flight of the day, so the prairie winds may have been kicking up. The Klingon Cruiser was way more forgiving. I still have the Orion Star-Liner and G12 reloads. I tend to think that the wind is better on the Salt Flats than our Frank Hunt Field (Pony Express Range).
 
Back
Top