Epoxying Pro 54 Forward Closure

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tOD

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IMG_20200314_171405_2.jpg IMG_20200314_171405.jpg I recall seeing some posts about epoxying the forward closure on these motors, but can't seem to find them. I may try flying my first Pro 54 tomorrow and did notice there doesn't appear to be a great seal between the closure and the liner. I recall that people mentioned placing a bead of 5 min. epoxy on the closure and letting it set up before use.
I attached a couple of photos. Do I apply the epoxy in the area indicted by the arrow,? I guess the problem is that there's a leakage of hot gas here that has burned through cases and airframes.
Anyone care to offer some guidance here?
 
I have flew a good number of 54s with out glue. But if I was to glue I would put a small fillet around the inside of liner lip. Than slide in closure turning it as its slid in. Make sure you have no glue on outside of liner or closure.
 
Thanks Jim! That was the post, I couldn't remember where I saw it. I'm going to take the rocket and motor to the launch tomorrow and assemble it prior to using it. It's a smallish field and it may be too windy to launch without encountering a tree, or the barn roof. I'm going to fly a number of smaller rockets first and see how things go. With BSI 5 min do you think an hour before use will be ok?
 
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Thanks Jim! That was the post, I couldn't remember where I saw it. I'm going to take the rocket and motor to the launch tomorrow and assemble it prior to using it. It's a smallish field and it may be too windy to launch without encountering a tree, or the barn roof. I'm going to fly a number of smaller rockets first and see how things go. With BSI 5 min do you think an hour before use will be ok?
Should be fine. You just need to buy a second or so.

Jim
 
The picture tells me that motor burns quick or less hot than those with the darker liner.

I would not even think of gluing, fly like it says in the instructions and it will work great.

The only ones I would even consider gluing are K300, L805, and the other problematic ones people tend to report failures on
 
The forward burnthrough at that liner/closure interface does happen occasionally. I choose to employ Jim's method because it's cheap insurance.

30 min the night before, 5 min on the field with a half hour wait. As mentioned above, make sure there is No epoxy on the outside of the liner/closure

would not even think of gluing, fly like it says in the instructions and it will work great.

Until it doesnt :cool:
 
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The picture tells me that motor burns quick or less hot than those with the darker liner.

I would not even think of gluing, fly like it says in the instructions and it will work great.

The only ones I would even consider gluing are K300, L805, and the other problematic ones people tend to report failures on
As I like to say, what are the odds you’ll regret glueing it in? Weigh the harm of not glueing it in vs glueing it in. Who knows what are the problematic ones vs. which are fine?


Tony
 
From what you guys are saying it sounds like 2¢ worth of epoxy might be cheaper than a $700 rocket.
 
My 2 cents. I’ve had a few cases blister doing nothing. Had another Cato even when epoxied. Jim Jarvis thought it might have the epoxy I used. It was 5 minute epoxy by JB weld. Really can’t say for sure but regardless I epoxy any 54mm 4 grain or bigger.
 
My 2 cents. I’ve had a few cases blister doing nothing. Had another Cato even when epoxied. Jim Jarvis thought it might have the epoxy I used. It was 5 minute epoxy by JB weld. Really can’t say for sure but regardless I epoxy any 54mm 4 grain or bigger.
I suspect that a good epoxy might be better than 5 minute epoxy. I believe that 5 minute epoxy softens with heat. But, I'm just totally speculating. I just try to buy a short amount of extra time, and in the five years that I have been gluing in the closure, I have not had this problem.

Four years ago, when I was lobbying Tripoli to do something about this problem and the Vmax problem, there were some communications with CTI about the issue. What CTI said at the time is copied below. From this, you might hope that the problem was solved. I haven't seen this problem as much in the last couple of years, maybe because some/many/most? fliers know about the problem. Locally, most people are aware of it, and our motor vendor usually tries to pass the word, but I still see this happen from time to time with new fliers and students.

I wish I had documented what the motors were that had this failure. It wouldn't have been that hard, but my belief at the time, when I tried to follow up on this in perhaps a dozen cases, is that there were multiple different types of propellant involved. In my own cases, it was a shorter smokey sam and a longer blue motor. I also had the impression that the closures with the O-rings were an issue (per the pics, including Tim's event). It doesn't appear to me that the motor design has changed, so in the spirit of cheap insurance, I glue in the closure. I also use the Aerotech forward disk on CTI 75's.

Jim

(from Jeroen)

We have attributed all (most) Pro54 mm motor problems to the ID of the liner. For a certain period the ID of the tubing varied widely. We worked pretty diligently with our supplier to fix this problem, and as far as I know this solved the problem. The forward closures should be a tight fit on the liner.

Would it be possible to provide the lot dates and motor types
(P54-xxG-xx) of the failed motors? There should be two date codes on the paper tubes. Recent reloads should not show this failure mode anymore.

Overall, I can say that we see very few problems with the Pro54 motors and the most of them are a bulged case, which we replace.
 

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We'll the wind kept the Funeral Rocket grounded today so no feedback on the 54mm CTI. (It's a J210 Classic, BTW, 3gr). Next opportunity will be at Red Glare, unless I get Covid19'd.
* Note: Covid19 is now a verb.:eek:
 
We'll the wind kept the Funeral Rocket grounded today so no feedback on the 54mm CTI. (It's a J210 Classic, BTW, 3gr). Next opportunity will be at Red Glare, unless I get Covid19'd.
* Note: Covid19 is now a verb.:eek:
I flew 3 3 grain 54mm CTI motors last year I didn't glue them all went perfect. Maybe 4 grain and up I will glue.
 
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