I'm starting my L1 cert. research

Actually both my son and I are getting into this pretty heavily.
We're both studying the Tripoli youth mentoring program and the other recommended material.
I'd really appreciate some simple advice on a few beginning decisions please.
I have two asks:
1: Please offer any advice that someone in my position tends to be unaware of.
2: Please offer some ideas on possible kit choices from trusted vendors.
One of our first choices of course is the rocket we use.
We have decided on a few basic requirements.
First and foremost I should stay with a kit that's suitable for somebody with intermediate modeling skills.
Level 3 or 4. No fiberglass.
I'd like to keep the kit price under $150.
I figure along with the kit price, building materials, likely basic upgrades, motors and shipping cost, my budget just might stay intact.
I don't need this one to get me level 2 certification in the future.
No dual deployment or electronics either.
We'd both prefer a large, low and slow design. We want to keep in in sight the whole flight.
It should be able to be flown safely on G motors for pre-cert test launches.
Still fairly low flying on H motor so as not to lose it.

I'm seeing motor mount options of 29mm, 38mm and 54mm. What factors should I consider here?
I am leaning toward 38mm for more flexibility and using an adapter when I need to. Thoughts on this?
I wouldn't mind still being able to put a I or J motor on it.

I know there are way too many options out there to ask you all to make my decision for me.
But I sure would love to hear some feed back on any of the popular kits that might match my wish list.

https://www.apogeerockets.com/Rocket-Kits/Skill-Level-3-Model-Rocket-Kits/Zephyr

This kit looks amazing and has a high rating in reviews. I'm going to do this one for my level 1 cert!

I like LOC Precision kits. Straightforward builds and pretty tough. I used the Yank Iris 4 inch to get my L1.

Zeus-cat said:

I like LOC Precision kits. Straightforward builds and pretty tough. I used the Yank Iris 4 inch to get my L1.

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Ditto. 3” iris for me and it will be able to take a j no problem down the road.

I agree with your approach. Keep it a simple, uncomplicated flight, and keep it in sight. And pick something you can fly on G motors too for practice flights and for club launches that are not high power.

I recommend a 4” diameter cardboard and wood rocket. If you want to fly it on G motors, especially at club launches that have a G motor limit and don’t have an FAA waiver, make sure the rocket is under 53 ounces total when fully prepped for flight and the G motor installed. If it is heavier, then it will only be allowed at high-power launches with FAA waivers, like the kind of launch where you will do your cert flight. Most 4” cardboard kits will easily keep under the weight limit, but it’s something to bear in mind if you start looking at bigger rockets.

I agree with the recommendations above. I’ve seen a Zephyr rocket recently, and it seemed like a good L1 rocket to me. Nice size and decent quality. An for a rocket from Apogee, it seems like a good price. Apogee has a reputation for having higher than average prices to go along with their higher than average service, but the zephyr seems reasonable to me.

I also like kits from LOC Precision. The LOC IV is a good level 1 kit. There’s also the 4” Goblin, although that might be getting on the heavier side.

I owned an Aerotech G-Force that I really liked. That one flew great on G and H motors.

Rockets like the Estes Mega Der Red Max fly great on G motors and are fully capable of flying on an H for an L1 flight. There are some great clones of that OOP kit out there.

For motor mount diameter, a 29 is fine. You will have plenty of choices of motors in 29mm. A 38 is also great, and it opens up a lot of options, but for the flights you are talking about, you will probably mostly be flying 29mm, I think. So basically either option is fine, and I wouldn’t rule out a kit if it only comes in 29.

I agree you do not need to get into electronics or dual deploy for the flights you are talking about. If you get a rocket without a dual deploy setup, and later you decide you want to fly it higher and wish you could bring it down a bit quicker and closer, you could consider a Jolly Logic Chute Release. It’s a simple and easy-to-use device that allows you to do a form of dual deployment on a single-deploy rocket. Really nice!

The other thing for you to consider is what kind of motor system are you going to use — single-use Aerotech motors that require no motor hardware or motor assembly, Aerotech reloadable motor system that requires an investment in hardware and requires motor assembly but can save money on motor reloads, or Cesaroni ProX reloadable system that requires less costly hardware and are easy to assemble but don’t save as much money. If I were you and wanted to keep it simple, I’d go with the Aerotech single use and DMS motors. You won’t have the upfront added cost of motor hardware or the added complication of building the motors. Later if you get into reloadable motors, you’ll want to see what your on-site vendors are stocking or research what it’s going to cost to have motors shipped to you.

Good luck! You have a lot of exciting times ahead!

If you wanna cert for a low price, talk to Toby (big_red_daddy) about one of his clone kits. Everything you need except glue and a motor at a price that’s hard for vendors to match. Lots of us have Lvl 1 certed on his rockets.q

Nick Hutton said:

If you wanna cert for a low price, talk to Toby (big_red_daddy) about one of his clone kits. Everything you need except glue and a motor at a price that’s hard for vendors to match. Lots of us have Lvl 1 certed on his rockets.q

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He is who I was thinking of who makes a great Mega Der Red Max clone kit that would be a great L1 cert kit. Good price. High quality. Great flyer. They fly good on G motors, and do great on H motors too.

Who is Toby? Where do I find him?

Cmac said:

I'm seeing motor mount options of 29mm, 38mm and 54mm. What factors should I consider here?
I am leaning toward 38mm for more flexibility and using an adapter when I need to. Thoughts on this?
I wouldn't mind still being able to put a I or J motor on it.

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4" Loc Goblin. The MMAS system is awesome and will offer the complete flexibility you are asking for in one kit.

I’m partial to non-generic kits such as the PML Mini BBX. It’s different material (quantum and fiberglass) but cool to fly and looks amazing. Flies nicely on G motors and an H puts it around 1800ft. Also use Aeropack retainers on high power. Easy to use and don’t weigh as much as the LOC adapter system.

Keep it simple for cert flights with a DMS motor. Aerotech reloads are a headache. Loki is better for anything larger than 29mm.

Any 4in cardbird where the fins don't hang below the tail. As usual I recommend the h97 reload, it's a soft boost and the very definition of low-n-slow.

I also have built several LOC kits, hard to beat the quality and price, most even come with chutes. You can use the Aero Pack motor retainer and then use their adapters for different size motors.

youre requirements have me suggesting the LOC mini magg. 5.5" dia . it wont fly on MPR g motors but IMO, if construction techniques are followed, MPR rockets constructed and flown successfully,and many launches have been made with MPR, there shouldnt be a problem

I'd recommend the 4" Binder Design Excel...



You can build it stock with a 38mm mount ($84.00), or for $10 more, you can get a 54mm mount and use an adapter to bring it down (Nice in the event you change your mind about going larger). It does have a dual deploy option (could just be used for a payload if you want) that can be purchased separately ($54.00) or together ($134.00 (38mm) or $144.00 (54mm)...





The build process is very similar to MPR kits, and depending on what you use for your MPR builds, you might not need any different materials. Comes with your NC, BTs (cardboard), CRs, recovery hardware (including parachute, and shock cord, but no blanket or sleeve), very nice vinyl decals (with multiple color options), and a retaining system. Just about everything you need, except for adhesives, tools, and paint.

Website say's they're out of 4" tubes, but I certain that they haven't updated if for a while. Contact Mike for the latest availability.

I've got several Binder kits, and I'm thrilled with them.

My advice on the FLIGHT, not on the KIT:

1. Make sure your rocket/motor combo stays within the waiver.
2. Don't launch it if the wind is unfavorable (you can wait another month, right?).
3. Whatever you build, fly it on a big G once or twice first; then pop in a small H and you have your cert.
4. Buy motors from a field vendor, if possible, because HAZMAT sucks!
5. If you don't have a field vendor, consider Loki Research 38mm. H and I loads ship with NO HAZMAT.
6. Make sure the whole process is FUN! Anxiety is not why we do hobbies.

I am also starting down the path of getting a Level 1 cert after years of playing with Estes rockets. I ordered a HyperLOC 835 from discountrocketry because it looks like a badass rocket and discountrocketry claimed that it's a "Great kit for level 1 and level 2 flights!" After reading these forums though, it may be way overkill for a level 1, but my plan was to use it for both Level 1 and Level 2. The weight will definitely exceed the 53oz threshold ThirstyBarbarian mentioned. And it has all the complicated features you're looking to avoid (electronics, dual deployment, etc).

I guess my comment offers nothing but "don't get this kit" if you're wanting big, low, and slow and uncomplicated.

20200214_195457

• Josh Lillie
• Feb 17, 2020

20200214_195154

• Josh Lillie
• Feb 17, 2020

Related to Bat-mite's answer... Look for sims of the kit, and use them to run the numbers.
Do not use the Estes fin alignment guide for setting your fins up. I did on my L1, but wasn't paying attention to them as the epoxy cured, and I don't have perfect 120 degree angles when one of them drooped. Payloadbay.com's > Tools > Fin Guide Tool is a much better option. A glue stick, a printed (full size, not fit to page), guide, an Xacto knife, and some dollar store foamcore (or a piece of cardboard for that matter) does wonders for keeping your fins correctly aligned.

Here's a video that I used to help me make some decisions about my L1 build (though I went with a scratchbuild)



Back to the Excel... Here's my sim for the dual deploy version (just delete the AV Bay and the forward tube for the standard version)...

crossfire said:

Who is Toby? Where do I find him?

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You don’t find Toby. Toby finds you.

Just kidding. Toby is @Big_Red_Daddy . Send him a message. He makes a lot of high-quality clones of OOP PSII kits with genuine Estes parts and a few upgrades. For example, the MDRM clone comes with a 38mm motor mount if you want, and all the kits come with Kevlar shock cords instead of elastic.

DAllen said:

4" Loc Goblin. The MMAS system is awesome and will offer the complete flexibility you are asking for in one kit.

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Some people like the MMAS, some don’t. I feel like it is bit overkill in a lot of cases and makes the rocket heavier than it needs to be. He said he wants to keep it basic and also be able to use G motors. I’d probably just get a Goblin with a straight 38mm mount to keep it simpler and lighter.

If I were getting something like the huge LOC VII for level 2 or level 3 flights, then I’d get the MMAS.

I’ll bet the MMAS weighs very similar to comparable adapters. And it’s about as simple as it gets. Glue three centering rings to a tube.

Thank you everybody.
That's a lot of great info and advice.
I think I might even stay away from reloads and composites for now and go with single use motors.
It's not the assembly so much that concerns me. I'm still having some difficulty understanding the power designations for those. The Estes A-E power chart is simple enough but I can't translate it to the higher power stuff yet. And I don't want to start asking questions here about it until I have a basis of knowledge to even ask the right questions.

Josh Lillie said:

I guess my comment offers nothing but "don't get this kit" if you're wanting big, low, and slow and uncomplicated.

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Ha ha. You and I are cut from the same cloth my brother!
I've decided to go the "George Costanza" route and do the "opposite" of my normal inclinations in hopes of success.

Most single use motors are composite, nothing to be afraid of. If you go to Apogee's web site, motor selection, choose dia that you are looking for. A lot of motors are listed with thrust, burn time and so on.
Another good one is Thrust curve.

https://www.thrustcurve.org/

https://www.apogeerockets.com/Rocket_Motors/29mm_Motors

Binder Designs Excel. Very sturdy tough high quality. All inclusive parts supplied. Flies great on G motors and high power as well.
I got my level 1 certification on mine. Keep it simple. Baby H motor, single deploy at the top.

John Taylor said:

Binder Designs Excel. Very sturdy tough high quality. All inclusive parts supplied. Flies great on G motors and high power as well.
I got my level 1 certification on mine. Keep it simple. Baby H motor, single deploy at the top.

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Here is mine

Apogee is a great site for knowledge. Almost every product page has blurbs and links to information that'll help you learn more about the different components and techniques.

When I started out with high-power as a college competitor, I got all my L1 stuff from Apogee (see sig), and don't regret that decision at all.
Now that I know more, I find things at other vendors cheaper, and make a portion of it myself, but Apogee is a great place to start.

This may need to be a new thread but I'll just touch on it here if you don't mind.

David Schwantz said:

Most single use motors are composite

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Ah yes, that's right. See what I mean!? I need to be taking baby steps!
What I meant by "composite" is the step up from reloads. What are they called?

[QUOTE A lot of motors are listed with thrust, burn time and so on.[/QUOTE]
Yes, I do get that part but the designations are confusing to me yet.
For example, the Aerotech 29 MM F62T-14.
I get that it's an F class motor, 62 is the impulse and I'm guessing 14 is the delay.
What is the letter "T" in this motor designation? Time?
What about:
G53FJ-5 (class G motor, 53 impulse and 5 second delay right? What's the FJ?)
F67-6W (class F motor, 67 impulse, 6 second delay right? what's the W?
Is there a HPR motor reference for impulse to Newton-seconds conversion like shown here?
https://www.hobbylinc.com/model-rocket-engine-classification

Yes, the motor codes are explained in depth at Apogee's website

for example, for Aerotech motors:
T means Blue Thunder propellant (fast burn, high thrust, blue tinged flame).
FJ means FastJack (fast blackjack, Black max, whatever) (J is blackjack, a thick dark smoky propellant with lower thrust. FJ is a higher thrust formulation of the smoky motor)
W means White Lightning (mid-high thrust, bright flame, white smoke)

Nytrunner said:

Apogee is a great site for knowledge. Almost every product page has blurbs and links to information that'll help you learn more about the different components and techniques.

When I started out with high-power as a college competitor, I got all my L1 stuff from Apogee (see sig), and don't regret that decision at all.
Now that I know more, I find things at other vendors cheaper, and make a portion of it myself, but Apogee is a great place to start.

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Yeah... I feel like I need some hand-holding for now. I'm likely gonna follow in your footsteps in this respect.
I do a lot of research at the Apogee site. I'll likely rely on the product vetting and tailored customer service that Apogee offers for my first few big builds. Once I feel like I can ask intelligent questions, I'll dig a little deeper into other vendors.

If you go to that Apogee link I listed, in the middle of the chart it will give what those letters stand for. ie W = White Lightning
T= Blue thunder
FJ = Black Max

Each one is a different type of propellant, White Lightning, Load roar and thick white smoke trail.

There is no "stupid" question. You will get a lot of very good help from the guys on here. I did, and still do.