Estes Citation Patriot

GlenP said:

I think the initial run of the rereleased kits had the Patriot/Estes logo identical, but that was a mistake. The Estes logo in the originals goes on the root side of the fin, so you need to have different placement of the Estes over the P or over the T side of the Patriot logo. This was noted on an early build thread when the kit was rereleased, and Estes may have corrected it by now, but there may be some kits out there still with the misprint.

PS - I agree with you in that I think the Eagle on the booster fin should be looking away from the body tube on both sides of the fin also, so that would require a mirror image for one of them. Just looks more like the Eagle is on the lookout rather than being introspective looking at the body booster tube. And why not paint that one booster fin totally gold?

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Just talked to John Boren about the decals again. He believes (but wasn't 100% certain) that only the first run of the re-release has the identical Patriot/Logo decal. I asked around Estes, and couldn't get a firm answer on if the 2nd run was corrected or not (it likely was). Clearly the decal has been corrected for kits produced in late 2018.

Problem with mirroring the Eagle is that it is white, and not too many printers (save for ALPS, or very expensive commercial machines) can print in white (or metallics for that matter). Tango Papa might be up to the task, but matching the golds (and other colors) might not be as easy. I'm certain that Stickershock could do it, but this would be printed on vinyl. Either way, you'd likely want all the decals to be similarly printed for consistency.

On the DIY front for making the decals, I can see a few options. One possibility would be to copy the Eagle decals on white labeling paper (one correct, and one mirrored), and hand painting the gold trim (gold Sharpie?). There you have a problem about sealing the stickers that would be made (otherwise the white isn't going to be white for long), there's the issue of repositioning the decals if you made a mistake while applying it, and then you'll have to worry about clear coats that might make the white paper translucent (or the black ink bleed), and you might have to deal with the black paint of the fin bleeding through (though masking the space for the Eagle(s) before painting the black might work). If someone were to try making waterslides, I can see two options... Knowing how how to silkscreen, that wouldn't be such a problem, OR printing on white waterslide decal paper, and dealing with the issue of the gold trim. I know that Sharpie ink is sensitive to some of the chemicals in spray paint (not so certain with the metalics, but red, black and blue all bleed with the paints I've applied over them). So, sealing the decal might be an issue no matter what you try. If you manage to match the gold with a paint, you would likely not have an issue unless the clear coat reacts with the paint. Testing on scraps would be the best course of action. After typing all that, @Nathan... I wonder how hard it would be to make a mask of the decal, that would allow you to simply paint the white, apply the mask, then paint the black of the fin (and the black outline of the Eagle), remove the mask (exposing the white), and paint the gold trim before a final clear coat? This might be the best solution outside of 3rd party decals.

The idea of a gold fin is interesting. However, trying to find a matching gold paint to the wrap decal would probably be as frustrating as trying to match blue decals to paint. I would not try to use a gold Sharpie for painting an entire fin.

A further complication could be created if someone was using an original Citation Patriot (MK-3) or the later Patriot (0652) for a similar project as the older golds *MAY* not match the reissue. Rumor has it that the later 0652 version had a more bronze color than the original. Unfortunately, I don't have a sample of the original MK-3 or 0652 here in China to compare with the latest version.

@GlenP In my sims, I found that the logo can be made to fit on the fin for the Patriot/Logo decal, but the placement is going to look odd.

Yes, metallics and white decals over dark backgrounds remain a challenge for me with print at home decals. I have tried several techniques and they just never quite get there. As well as color matching the kit decals. Part of the fun is in the trying, seems like you can get pretty close as long as you keep your distance...

GlenP said:

...seems like you can get pretty close as long as you keep your distance...

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That's an oxymoron for you.

I talked to Bruiser about this, and he did me a favor... Here's what the design would look like with a payload section. He may never fly it that way, or display it that way, but this is how I envision the design. Thanks for that Bruiser!!



To help sell the original design, I did reposition the Estes Logo to a location closer to the actual unaltered decal location.

The citation Patriot flew today. I flew it on a D12-5 and it was a good flight. I had planned to fly it on the 3-18mm cluster and as a D12 to D12 two stage but the winds started to blow too hard. I have a picture of it on the pad



I also have a video but I can't figure out how to edit it

-Bob

Now the rest of the story...

As many of you will recall, I build two interchangeable mounts for this rocket. One 24mm single engine mount and one 18 triple cluster mount. The 24mm has an engine hook that will allow Estes E motors and the 18mm has hooks sets for the standard A, B and C motors.

The initial flight (above) was on an Estes D12-5 engine and the flight went well. It wasn't until I got home that I realized something was amiss... The back of the motor mount was burnt up and the rear of the rocket was scorched on the inside of the tube. It took me a minute, you know after voicing several WTH's, that I realized what happened. Bet some of you know already...

Here's what I saw when I went to take the motor out.:



I couldn't get the mount out with that piece of cardboard flapping around so I cleaned off the soot and glued it back in place. Once I pulled the mount out I could access the damage.



So you don't have to scroll back, this is what it should look like:




I have a repair plan so stay tuned.

Oh, and if you haven't figured out what happen, well, I forgot to insert the 1 inch spacer before putting in the shorter D motor...

-Bob

I have memory issues

Stage one of the repair was to cut off the damaged area followed by cutting out new pieces of replacement tubing. Unfortunately, I had made the mount out of ST-9 tubing and I did not have any. I did have some BT-50 tubing though so I doubled it up to make it thick like the ST-9 tubing. ST-9 tubing is .024 and BT-50 is .013 so doubling up the BT-50 is only .002 thicker. Then I cut another piece of BT-50 tubing and I slit it lengthwise so I could use it as an outside coupler. Here's the pieces:




Next step was to wrap the 1" spacer (yep, I have several) with a layer of tape so it would fit snuggly inside the tubing to keep everything aligned straight. THen I glued the coupler piece over the joint and this is what I have now:




Next step is to replace the rear centering/stop ring but I need to cut one out first. I am going to have to dig in my box of scrap and see what I have to make it from.

-Bob

I did that on my Mean/DerRedMax.... I didn't have a removable motor mount, so I used the spacer tube from Estes as an alignment jig, wrapped with kit plastic bag until it fit the motor mount tube snugly, and butt glued a 1" piece of BT50 onto the end with epoxy mixed with some milled fiberglass. Now, I make it a habit to leave the orange spacer in all rockets that take an "E" engine. With any luck, that won't be a mistake I repeat anytime soon.

That's what I decided to do too, leave the spacer in the rocket. Now, you'd think that would be easy but I have to remember to take the spacers home and remember to put them in the rockets

I have the ring made and it's setting up in the rocket right now. I installed the mount, slide the ring in and put some tack spots of glue on it. Once they dry, I'll remove the mount and get a nice fillet of glue arounf both sides of it and the Citation Patriot will be back in business. I really hope the winds will be gone by the November launch date. I still have more configurations to test

-Bob

Good save, buddy.

Show 'N Tell......."E" powered Patriot, and BT-80 Upsize.....all graphics are painted....tomorrow, work on the blue areas. Body Tubes spirals and Fin Filets are Z-Poxy and Microballons....I find this the smoothest and quickest for me.

Red7Fifty said:

Show 'N Tell......."E" powered Patriot, and BT-80 Upsize.....all graphics are painted....tomorrow, work on the blue areas. Body Tubes spirals and Fin Filets are Z-Poxy and Microballons....I find this the smoothest and quickest for me.View attachment 394821 View attachment 394822

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I'm liking what I'm seeing here!!!

Sweet Super Patriot!

Mine is all fixed now



-Bob

Forgot to specify, Z-poxy Finishing Resin mixed with Microballons. I apply it to the spirals using a single edge razor blade as a squeegee. Very little sanding to do that way. Couple coats of Filler Primer.....almost comes out like auto body work.....but quicker. I use a sanding block made from block of styrofoam.
Here is my Patriot XL, on Estes BP C6-3....video by rocket buddy.

Flew the Patriot again today as a two stage and a cluster.

The two stage was a D12-0 to a D12-5. That was a spectacular flight. There was a group of college students trying to L2 certify and I heard a few of them say that the staging was awesome!

Then came the cluster flight with three C6-5 motors. Light off was good and it was a straight shot up. It didn't get the altitude I thought it would. I'd estimate maybe a tad over 600 feet. Nose cone popped off but the chute did not come out. The rocket got into a flat spin and hit the ground with a thump. There is damage to two of the fins but I can't really tell how bad it is because the fin plates are hiding the damage. I'll post some pics once I figure out how I'm going to fix them.

-Bob

Inject some glue into the seam.

Just curious, back on post 7&8 you talk about adding the fin plates. What were those made out of? They look really good.

The fin plates where made of poster board that I bought at Walmart. I had to add them to stiffen the body tube. Before adding them the fins would wiggle a lot because there are no centering rings glued inside the body tube to stiffen it.

The plates are what is making me have to scratch my head on how to repair the fins. You'll see what I mean once I get some pics.

-Bob

i love this rocket so much! I always thought that 18mm motors were just too wimpy for a rocket with this much drag and size. Bashing it to a 24mm motor mount seems like a great idea.

Great job Bruiser and K'Tesh. I recently was all set to start building a BT-55 "Patriot Jr" with print-it-yourself decals... until I remembered that the Patriot has white and gold metallic in its decals. If only white and metallic toner or ink was more common.

What got me going on the idea of a BT-55 Patriot was that I was looking at a BNC-55AO that I got to scratch build as Space Station Aquarius (not to be confused with the Explorer Aquarius). The Space Station Aquarius uses a PNC-55AO, which is the same nose cone as the Goblin. However, the BNC is a little fatter on the top than the PNC, and then it dawned on me that it is very close in profile to the PNC-60AH used on the Citation Patriot. But with decals being a challenge, I've put Patriot Jr to the back of my rather huge build queue.

Thank you for your kind words. A BT55 Citation Patriot would be pretty sweet but like you mentioned the metallic gold is a problem.

-Bob

IluvRocketry14 said:

i love this rocket so much! I always thought that 18mm motors were just too wimpy for a rocket with this much drag and size. Bashing it to a 24mm motor mount seems like a great idea.

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If you don't want to kitbash a new motor mount, I flew mine last time out on an 18 mm Aerotech D24 reload. Photo perfect flight.

Bruiser said:

Thank you for your kind words. A BT55 Citation Patriot would be pretty sweet but like you mentioned the metallic gold is a problem.

-Bob

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Give Mark @ stickershock a call for the gold / white decals. He's done several custom decals for me recently. Very reasonable prices and quick turn around times.