Launch Site Dimension Dilemma way out in the desert...

it is all about the way it is worded (which is why lawyers go to law school).

It lists various cases where a licensee is required to have a permit. It does not state: "No other case shall require a permit".

The regulations, which are written to regulate the things in the law clearly require permission of the Authority Having Jurisdiction (AHJ) for Model Rocket launching (and the permission of the property owner). The CSFM has stated in the past that this would normally be in the form of a written permit. For locations where the local government has (brilliantly) established a written approval for Model Rocket launches (often with conditions), that local written guidance is the AHJ permission.

We need a written permit in Los Angeles County. Either from the LA County Fire Dept or the City FD where you are launching.

For unincorporated portions of Orange County:
https://www.google.com/url?client=i...FjAAegQIBhAB&usg=AOvVaw2Jvlx736KJzSWvZ0j_QAI4

For motors listed by the OSFM as model rocket motors, used in model rockets, and not exceeding 160 NS total impulse in the rocket, you need permission from the property owner and authorization from the authority having jurisdiction. We can discuss the specific "authority having jurisdiction". It is most likely San Bernardino County Fire in your case, but I would need more information to be sure.

§1025. Authorization.
(a) No model rocket user shall launch any model rocket from any site without first securing authorization from the authority having jurisdiction. The authority having jurisdiction may require notification each time that model rockets are to be launched.
(b) It shall be the responsibility of the model rocket user to secure permission of the owner of private lands when such land is intended to be used to launch model rockets.

Authority: Section 12552, Health and Safety Code Reference: Section 12552, Health and Safety Code

shreadvector said:

Eventually, the Ca State Fire marshal will update and revise regulations that are in conflict with the law, but until then you have to follow the law.

Click to expand...

Actually, regulators regulate based on the regulations. We are expected to follow current regulations.

DaveW6DPS said:

Actually, regulators regulate based on the regulations. We are expected to follow current regulations.

Click to expand...

The CSFM is aware of the new law and was aware of this change when the change was first proposed and when it went through the legislative process. They review all legislation that affects them.

They also clearly stated that anything in the regulations that contradicted the law would become invalid. It remains 'printed' until they get around to revising the regulations. They said that that was not a priority for them.

The legislators in Sacramento that i worked with when i proposed the law change and got it moving also confirmed that new law over-rides older existing and contradictory or conflicting regulations.

I also think they said something about a Fireworks committee that has not met in a long time could convene and review and propose regulation revisions.

DaveW6DPS said:

However, California does not.

The state regulation incorporates the 2012 version of 1122, but 1127 is not incorporated.
California has local regulations for high power and research motors not directly based on 1127.
The NAR model rocket safety code is referenced for information, but is not directive.



Tripoli is not the issue, Fred. You should know that any changes to NFPA 1122 after 2012 have not been adopted as part of the regulation.

SCRA doesn't fly high power, but if you did it should be in accordance with California regulations, with the NAR High Power Safety Code and NFPA 1127 referenced for information only.

Click to expand...

Just to clarify, Tripoli requires that a an insured flyer obey local law and NFPA 1122 and 1127, whichever is most restrictive, even in California. If that’s not done, Tripoli insurance would not provide coverage. So our HPR Safety Code is certainly not “referenced for information only.”

Steve Shannon said:

Just to clarify, Tripoli requires that a an insured flyer obey local law and NFPA 1122 and 1127, whichever is most restrictive, even in California. If that’s not done, Tripoli insurance would not provide coverage. So our HPR Safety Code is certainly not “referenced for information only.”

Click to expand...

California regulations are more restrictive than NFPA or TRA safety codes. TRA safety codes are not "referenced for information only". TRA safety codes are not referenced AT ALL in California regulations unlike the NAR Model Rocket Safety Code.

You have it backwards, Steve. By following California regulations we exceed NFPA and TRA requirements. In the case of ROC, our FAA COA and BLM agreement add more restrictions.

We could comply with TRA and NFPA and be cited and fined under California regulations.

RocketBuff, I admire your generosity to make your land available for one-off launches like this. Are there any updates on this idea?

I'm asking because I'm itching to launch my low-power (merely multi-stage D motors) rocket (my own design from scratch) but it'll go so high I need some place bigger than Santa Fe Dam. (Last winter my single-stage D drifted into the reservoir! Brr, cold swim!) I've been waiting for ROC at Lucerne for months during the covid-19 lockdown, but now even the June ROCstock is canceled so I don't see that coming back for months. I'm tempted to do it solo at Lucerne, but if your site is allowed to launch low-power that would be perfect (at sunrise when winds are low) for me. Is it?

As long as you're limiting yourself to CA-specified model rockets and motors (< 1500g, G impulse max, < 125g propellant, CA OSFM-approved motors) and you're not flying with a group < 10 people then you can fly anytime you want at Lucerne Dry Lake. SB county has granted permission and you don't need to deal with the FAA and Cal Pyro thing. Best thing is that it's flat and there's no vegetation, so it's pretty easy to recover rockets there.

You should be able to fly model rockets from your property too, as long as you get the consent of the surrounding landowners if you think your rockets may stray off your property. Since the SB county fire marshall has punted on the consent issue, you should be fine.

For HPR... don't mess with it. Just go out to a ROC launch (when they resume...)

DaveW6DPS said:

California regulations are more restrictive than NFPA or TRA safety codes. TRA safety codes are not "referenced for information only". TRA safety codes are not referenced AT ALL in California regulations unlike the NAR Model Rocket Safety Code.

You have it backwards, Steve. By following California regulations we exceed NFPA and TRA requirements. In the case of ROC, our FAA COA and BLM agreement add more restrictions.

We could comply with TRA and NFPA and be cited and fined under California regulations.

Click to expand...

Dave, I agree that most items in California regulations exceed NFPA and TRA and that complying with OSFM rules would most likely result in compliance with NFPA and the TRA Safety Codes, but there’s one place that I know of where they don’t. For those activities that would fall under the Tripoli Research Safety Code, California requires bunkers instead of safe distances. A Tripoli member could be in perfect compliance with California law, yet out of compliance with the Tripoli Research Safety Code and thus unprotected by Tripoli insurance.
All I’m saying is that a person must be aware of all the rules.

Steve Shannon said:

Dave, I agree that most items in California regulations exceed NFPA and TRA and that complying with OSFM rules would most likely result in compliance with NFPA and the TRA Safety Codes, but there’s one place that I know of where they don’t. For those activities that would fall under the Tripoli Research Safety Code, California requires bunkers instead of safe distances. A Tripoli member could be in perfect compliance with California law, yet out of compliance with the Tripoli Research Safety Code and thus unprotected by Tripoli insurance.
All I’m saying is that a person must be aware of all the rules.

Click to expand...

That is very narrow focus and a ways to go to find a point. The requirements for bunkers and trenchwork is the main reason our club does not do research launches. If a California prefecture did hold research launches they would need the appropriate bunkers and trenchwork, AND the separation distances in the safety code. It would be just as possible to be incompliance with the TRA research code and be prosecuted for violating the state regulations.

We follow our own rules. Our rules are based on complying with TRA and NAR safety codes, OSFM regulations, FAA regulations and our COA, and our recreational use permit from the BLM. On top of those we, as a club, have added a couple of things we believe prudent.

DaugerDude said:

RocketBuff, I admire your generosity to make your land available for one-off launches like this. Are there any updates on this idea?

I'm asking because I'm itching to launch my low-power (merely multi-stage D motors) rocket (my own design from scratch) but it'll go so high I need some place bigger than Santa Fe Dam. (Last winter my single-stage D drifted into the reservoir! Brr, cold swim!) I've been waiting for ROC at Lucerne for months during the covid-19 lockdown, but now even the June ROCstock is canceled so I don't see that coming back for months. I'm tempted to do it solo at Lucerne, but if your site is allowed to launch low-power that would be perfect (at sunrise when winds are low) for me. Is it?

Click to expand...

Thanks for your interest!

I'm getting closer... I'm simply waiting on one land owner to get back to me with written permission. I have written permission from every other landowner within 1500 feet.

So forward progress is happening.

Fingers crossed on the last land owner!

cerving said:

As long as you're limiting yourself to CA-specified model rockets and motors (< 1500g, G impulse max, < 125g propellant, CA OSFM-approved motors) and you're not flying with a group < 10 people then you can fly anytime you want at Lucerne Dry Lake. SB county has granted permission and you don't need to deal with the FAA and Cal Pyro thing. Best thing is that it's flat and there's no vegetation, so it's pretty easy to recover rockets there.

You should be able to fly model rockets from your property too, as long as you get the consent of the surrounding landowners if you think your rockets may stray off your property. Since the SB county fire marshall has punted on the consent issue, you should be fine.

For HPR... don't mess with it. Just go out to a ROC launch (when they resume...)

Click to expand...

This is actually really incredible!

"If you're not flying with a group < 10 people then you can fly anytime you want at Lucerne Dry Lake."

And this is pretty cool too.

"Since the SB county fire marshall has punted on the consent issue, you should be fine."

For the Helendale site... I actually went ahead and got permission from the local fire station, which as I understand it, would be the local fire authority for our spot.

But if the SB county fire Marshall punted... that's great to hear.

It will be easier for others to simply launch from their own property.

Very cool development for sure.

Sorry … deleted due to some bad math ….

RocketBuff said:

For the Helendale site... I actually went ahead and got permission from the local fire station, which as I understand it, would be the local fire authority for our spot.

But if the SB county fire Marshall punted...

Click to expand...

You should always contact the fire department with jurisdiction. Of course on BLM land the BLM retains jurisdiction.

I have never heard anything about San Bernardino County Fire "punting" and would verify before relying on that. I launch in the Lenwood area with 4H and always talk to the local fire house first.

Thanks so much for the advice. Friday morning winds were nil, so we went (just my father and my son and I) for our own Micro ROCstock. Only one other flyer was out there with LPRs too. Here's my best launch of the day to 2928 feet AGL:

When my next batch of LPRs are ready and the wind is light, I'll go again. Thank you!

cerving said:

As long as you're limiting yourself to CA-specified model rockets and motors (< 1500g, G impulse max, < 125g propellant, CA OSFM-approved motors) and you're not flying with a group < 10 people then you can fly anytime you want at Lucerne Dry Lake. SB county has granted permission and you don't need to deal with the FAA and Cal Pyro thing. Best thing is that it's flat and there's no vegetation, so it's pretty easy to recover rockets there.

Click to expand...

NICE VIDEO! LOVE IT!

Hello all, i am moving back to Ridgecrest later this year, and was wondering if this site is up and running, if not i look forward to trying to make a couple launches with the kids anywhere somewhat close, pretty new to the scene some of out friends up in washington, have taken us out a few times this last summer and we all enjoyed it, and look forward to meeting the community and learning. thanks

If you're in Ridgecrest, get hooked up with these guys.

https://friendsofamateurrocketry.org/

bennybncali26 said:

Hello all, i am moving back to Ridgecrest later this year, and was wondering if this site is up and running, if not i look forward to trying to make a couple launches with the kids anywhere somewhat close, pretty new to the scene some of out friends up in washington, have taken us out a few times this last summer and we all enjoyed it, and look forward to meeting the community and learning. thanks

Click to expand...

Also:

https://mojavedesertrocketry.org/

WFWalby said:

Also:

https://mojavedesertrocketry.org/

Click to expand...

We had a launch at MDARS yesterday. TARC teams came out in the rain. Its always a good time flying with the MDARS guys!

shreadvector said:

What state are you in?

Most states require permission of the property owner (i.e. do not trespass).

CA requires a permit from the local fire authority having jurisdiction AND the permission of the property owner. This would require permission of the owners of all the property being used for the launch AND recovery area.

As far as the safety codes (NAR/TRA which derive from the N.F.P.A. codes), the launch site dimensions are for the total area you will be using. If you have permission to use miles of open land, then you are good from the perspective of the safety code. Safety code does not grant permission to trespass and does not grant fire authority permits.

"Empty" desert can burn if there is dry brush. if there is wind, then a wild fire can spread rapidly. This is why many clubs launch on dry lakebeds (with approval of the local authorities for land use and fire permits).

Click to expand...

He's in CA. Of course.

Nevermind