Launch Site Dimension Dilemma way out in the desert...

Greetings Group,

Hope everyone is well...

Have a quick question about what actually defines a "launch site" according to NAR and Tripoli rules.

Is it the actual "property dimensions" of the piece of property you are actually launching from...?

Or is it simply the "clear area" you are "operating in" when it comes to buildings and the surrounding community at large.

I would like to start a club and launch from a 5 acre piece of land I own WAY out in the desert.

The piece of property is only 660 feet by 330 feet but the nearest building is over a mile away. And its simply wide open desert.

The nearest road is a county maintained dirt road leading to the property that has maybe one or two cars per hour during its busiest times and that dirt road would be 1200 feet from the actual launch site.

So we would be one mile to the nearest building and 1200 feet from the nearest road.

Yes, recovery at times would require retrieving rockets from the surrounding property owners land but I would think nobody would have a problem with it if I contacted them directly and asked for permission.

It's literally vacant desert for miles and miles.

Attached a pic here to help visualize the area. Proposed launch site is in red.

Thanks to all for any and all responses.

Looks like you are about 2 miles West from a Lockheed facility?

YES! It is... two miles from the main Lockheed Radar Cross Section Facility building and one mile from one of their buildings that does radar cross section analysis.

But other than that it's all desert.

The town of Silver Lakes/Helendale, CA is five miles south.

I'm hoping to get a club started and do both LPR and HPR but I'm trying to figure out if we would qualify for HPR on a smaller piece of land.

What state are you in?

Most states require permission of the property owner (i.e. do not trespass).

CA requires a permit from the local fire authority having jurisdiction AND the permission of the property owner. This would require permission of the owners of all the property being used for the launch AND recovery area.

As far as the safety codes (NAR/TRA which derive from the N.F.P.A. codes), the launch site dimensions are for the total area you will be using. If you have permission to use miles of open land, then you are good from the perspective of the safety code. Safety code does not grant permission to trespass and does not grant fire authority permits.

"Empty" desert can burn if there is dry brush. if there is wind, then a wild fire can spread rapidly. This is why many clubs launch on dry lakebeds (with approval of the local authorities for land use and fire permits).

RocketBuff said:

YES! It is... two miles from the main Lockheed Radar Cross Section Facility building and one mile from one of their buildings that does radar cross section analysis.

But other than that it's all desert.

The town of Silver Lakes/Helendale, CA is five miles south.

I'm hoping to get a club started and do both LPR and HPR but I'm trying to figure out if we would qualify for HPR on a smaller piece of land.

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Hopefully you are aware of the requirements for HPR in CA (licensed pyrotechnician, written permit from the Fire AHJ) as well as the requirement for an FAA Waiver.

Your right in between 3 groups that launch out here. ROC flies at Lucern Dry lake and MDARS flies near Boron, and FAR flies out at Koen Dry lake. Really no need for another group. Pay attention to Shread, he knows what is required.

"CA requires a permit from the local fire authority having jurisdiction AND the permission of the property owner. This would require permission of the owners of all the property being used for the launch AND recovery area."

Yes. We are in CA.

It does have very sparse scattered brush but at distances that I think it would make it impossible for fire to jump bush from bush.

Case in point I was out there the other day, "trying" to burn some brush to clear a spot for a parking area and with a propane powered weed burner torch it was a go bush to bush thing for sure. And it took awhile.

There is a 640 acre parcel of BLM land a click north of the property though.

Wondering if maybe it would be easier to try and simply get one approval from BLM instead of piece together a dozen individual landowners approvals?

Dunno?

"Hopefully you are aware of the requirements for HPR in CA (licensed pyrotechnician, written permit from the Fire AHJ) as well as the requirement for an FAA Waiver."

I was not aware of the licensed pyrotechnician requirement. That's a bummer.

You need to look up the fire that destroyed Phelan and the surrounding areas a few years back! Your going to have to deal with Hector Villalobos at the Ridgecrest office for the BLM. Good luck with that. I've been dealing with them for decades.

Blue cut fire! 37,000 acres of desert scrub gone! Yes, the desert burns....I live in Quartz Hill area of Palmdale.

"Your right in between 3 groups that launch out here. ROC flies at Lucern Dry lake and MDARS flies near Boron, and FAR flies out at Koen Dry lake. Really no need for another group."

This may seem ridiculous but I was hoping to keep an "open range" seven days a week... meaning ANYONE could come and launch anytime they wanted instead of waiting for launch days at the surrounding clubs.

I mean... suppose some guy or girl has a day off during the week and wants to "Rend the Heavens" on a HPR motor.

It would be nice to have a place to go and do that for free anytime they want

The other clubs rock for sure... just looking for more options for everyone.

"Your going to have to deal with Hector Villalobos at the Ridgecrest office for the BLM."

Okay... thanks for the heads up and warning. Appreciated.

RocketBuff said:

"Your right in between 3 groups that launch out here. ROC flies at Lucern Dry lake and MDARS flies near Boron, and FAR flies out at Koen Dry lake. Really no need for another group."

This may seem ridiculous but I was hoping to keep an "open range" seven days a week... meaning ANYONE could come and launch anytime they wanted instead of waiting for launch days at the surrounding clubs.

I mean... suppose some guy or girl has a day off during the week and wants to "Rend the Heavens" on a HPR motor.

It would be nice to have a place to go and do that for free anytime they want

The other clubs rock for sure... just looking for more options for everyone.

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Sounds fabulous, but, illegal. I was going to start one in Santa Clarita, but dealing with the fire Marshall, local authorities, etc...big pain. Anyone can do a "pirate" launch and probably have no issues, but...I just flew with MDARS the first time a few weeks ago. No lines, great folks, maybe 5 or 6 folks flying. I could fly as fast as i could prep! Im very familiar with the High Desert around here. Been off roading for decades.

RocketBuff said:

I mean... suppose some guy or girl has a day off during the week and wants to "Rend the Heavens" on a HPR motor.

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Is it possible to have an indefinite waiver?

SecondRow said:

Is it possible to have an indefinite waiver?

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Depending on your FAA contact, it is possible to get a waiver for "every day from x day to y day from sunrise to sunset" but you're still required to do the NOTAMs and whatever else the FAA requires. The only waiver I've been involved with like that requires a call to the local airport tower before and after flights as well as monitor the ATC radio and be available on a cell phone for calls from the tower.

Our waiver is good 365 days a year from sun up to sun down but like heada says, NOTAM’s need to be filed 72-24 hours prior to launch (assuming you’re flying HP).

Dude, simply avoid the hassles and stick to your own property. It's yours, you can do what you like, less red tape and if you join Tripoli instead of NAR your insurance will cover you with no launch site dimension restrictions on A-G motors.

NAR has minimum site dimensions for A-G while Tripoli simply has safe distance restrictions. Your 660 by 330 piece of land will let you easily launch A-G with zero coverage issues if you stick to A-G motors.

Also, if you stick to A-G you DO NOT have to get a permit with the fire marshal. A-G are considered "model rocket" engines in San Bernardino County and as such you are not required to get a permit to launch.

You are required to review their online safety procedures, technically.

Again, if you stick to A-G motors you do not need to get a permit anywhere in San Bernardino County. There is no permit to actually be issued. Only HPR "rocket launches" need a permit. A-G falls under "model rocket".

JMX said:

Dude, simply avoid the hassles and stick to your own property. It's yours, you can do what you like, less red tape and if you join Tripoli instead of NAR your insurance will cover you with no launch site dimension restrictions on A-G motors.

NAR has minimum site dimensions for A-G while Tripoli simply has safe distance restrictions. Your 660 by 330 piece of land will let you easily launch A-G with zero coverage issues if you stick to A-G motors.

View attachment 406054

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CA state Law requires that Model Rockets comply with N.F.P.A. 1122 which has the launch site dimensions (same as NAR Model Rocket Safety Code).
Section 12519 of the Health and Safety Code.

WELL, THEN THAT IS SOOOOOOOOO WRONG!

IF THAT'S THE CURRENT LAW!

The dude has 5 FRICKING ACRES out in the middle of the empty desert and he wants to open it up to other people for free launches 24/7/365 and if it's NAR regulations now that the state goes by then he and everybody else launching at his place is limited to B class motors???

He said his property is 660 by 330 so that means he is stuck on B class motors???

How did the amateur rocket community allow California to bend everybody over like this. That is so wrong.

Up to G impulse could be done if surrounding land owners give permission.

JMX said:

WELL, THEN THAT IS SOOOOOOOOO WRONG!

IF THAT'S THE CURRENT LAW!

The dude has 5 FRICKING ACRES out in the middle of the empty desert and he wants to open it up to other people for free launches 24/7/365 and if it's NAR regulations now that the state goes by then he and everybody else launching at his place is limited to B class motors???

He said his property is 660 by 330 so that means he is stuck on B class motors???

How did the amateur rocket community allow California to bend everybody over like this. That is so wrong.

View attachment 406153

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Ummm.. It's not NAR. It's N.F.P.A.

Doesn't Tripoli follow all the N.F.P.A. codes?

If not, please let us know which N.F.P A. codes that TRA members may disregard.

shreadvector said:

Ummm.. It's not NAR. It's N.F.P.A.

Doesn't Tripoli follow all the N.F.P.A. codes?

If not, please let us know which N.F.P A. codes that TRA members may disregard.

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NAR and Tripoli follow the same NFPA codes. Tripoli doesn’t have a model rocket code of its own but the next version of the safety codes will make it clear that model rocket activities by members must follow 1122.

And to the person who claimed that rocketeers in California “allowed” themselves to be bent over, bull. That’s just victim blaming.

Thanks everyone for lots to think about. Every and any response is super welcome and appreciated.

I will start the process of contacting the surrounding land owners... and also start interfacing with the county and fire marshal.

Right now it seems the most pressing matter is taking dominion over more land so to speak. We live under an Open Heaven for sure... not so much when it comes to the ground we hold, sadly.

I'm still totally running with this idea of having a place anyone and everyone can come to anytime they want any day they want and just set-up and fly type of deal. Totally free, no club to join, no yearly dues to pay, just a no hassle community based thing, where you just pickup after you leave type of thing.

I'm not knocking the clubs at all. They all totally rock and are VERY needed. But not everybody can make weekend launch events or specific launch days.

After careful measurement if I place the launch site smack dab in the center of the property it would be exactly 1320 feet to Helendale Road and exactly one mile to the edge of the property of the Lockheed Radar Cross section facility and exactly two miles from the nearest building on the property.

Will update everyone as things come together

It is probably best to ignore anyone not experienced with launching in California. We have different rules. The internet in general is not a very good place to get useful information.

Are you in San Bernardino or Kern County? I haven't tracked down your specific site.

If you want to launch high power or research motors, you do need someone with a CalPyro Operator license. Our club has a mailing list for folks working on the license. We have several licensees, including me. Basic information on California Regulations is here: https://osfm.fire.ca.gov/media/3072...se-and-storage-of-fireworks-in-california.pdf

If you limit to motors listed by the OSFM as model rocket motors (Generally A to G), there are a lot less regulatory issues.

Feel free to message me for specific questions. You might want to come to one of our launches to see how we do things. We launch the second Saturday of each month, weather permitting.

If you do set up for high power (and don't launch on the second Saturday of the month) I can try to come to your launches, with my CalPyro license. Message me to discuss it.

I have been launching high power in SoCal over 20 years and our club is as expert in the regulations as any. We also like to help others get started (and have more places to fly).

"Are you in San Bernardino or Kern County?"

San Bernardino county. Sadly. I'm quickly learning Kern county is a bit more welcoming to model rocketry it seems.

"If you do set up for high power (and don't launch on the second Saturday of the month) I can try to come to your launches, with my CalPyro license. Message me to discuss it."

Thanks, Dave! Appreciated!

Steve Shannon said:

NAR and Tripoli follow the same NFPA codes.

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However, California does not.

The state regulation incorporates the 2012 version of 1122, but 1127 is not incorporated.
California has local regulations for high power and research motors not directly based on 1127.
The NAR model rocket safety code is referenced for information, but is not directive.

shreadvector said:

If not, please let us know which N.F.P A. codes that TRA members may disregard.

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Tripoli is not the issue, Fred. You should know that any changes to NFPA 1122 after 2012 have not been adopted as part of the regulation.

SCRA doesn't fly high power, but if you did it should be in accordance with California regulations, with the NAR High Power Safety Code and NFPA 1127 referenced for information only.

DaveW6DPS said:

However, California does not.

The state regulation incorporates the 2012 version of 1122, but 1127 is not incorporated.
California has local regulations for high power and research motors not directly based on 1127.
The NAR model rocket safety code is referenced for information, but is not directive.



Tripoli is not the issue, Fred. You should know that any changes to NFPA 1122 after 2012 have not been adopted as part of the regulation.

SCRA doesn't fly high power, but if you did it should be in accordance with California regulations, with the NAR High Power Safety Code and NFPA 1127 referenced for information only.

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As most know, I am primarily concerned with "Model Rockets" even though I am certified HPR Level 2.

The most common error is that people are looking at the Regulations or the error filled book (i forget what it is, but it may be a guidebook or study guide for Fireworks).

We has the LAW changed and the law over-rides any previous regulations that may be in conflict. The old or existing regulations cannot contradict the Law.

The law refers to 2013 edition of the “NFPA 1122: Code for Model Rocketry,” and 2012 edition of the “NFPA 1125: Code for the Manufacture of Model Rocket and High Power Rocket Motors,”

The law does not address HPR at all - that is only addressed in the regulations.

Eventually, the Ca State Fire marshal will update and revise regulations that are in conflict with the law, but until then you have to follow the law.

https://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/15-16/bill/asm/ab_0451-0500/ab_467_bill_20150715_chaptered.htm

Important portions:

SECTION 1.
Section 12519 of the Health and Safety Code is amended to read:

12519.
“Model rocket” means a toy or educational device that weighs not more than 1500 grams, including the engine and any payload, that is propelled by a model rocket motor, and that conforms to the definition of “model rocket” in the 2013 edition of the “NFPA 1122: Code for Model Rocketry,” or a more recent edition as adopted by the State Fire Marshal.

SEC. 2.
Section 12520 of the Health and Safety Code is amended to read:

12520.
“Model rocket motor” means a rocket propulsion device using commercially manufactured solid propellant, that does not require mixing by the user, and that conforms to the definition of “model rocket motor” in the 2012 edition of the “NFPA 1125: Code for the Manufacture of Model Rocket and High Power Rocket Motors,” or a more recent edition as adopted by the State Fire Marshal.


It is important to know the difference between laws and regulations (and between a "license" and a "permit").

Okay. Now I'm really confused.

Reading through assembly bill AB 467 that was passed - I am now lead to believe the following.

1) A model rocket can NOW weigh up to 1500 grams (up from 500 grams)... so a "model rocket" (propellant included) can now weigh 3.31 pounds and still be classified a "model rocket".

That's great. We can launch bigger rockets and still have them be classified as "model rockets". Bravo California.

AND

2) Reading through AB 467 I'm now lead to believe that any engine that the fire marshal considers a "model rocket" engine can be used without a license and WITHOUT a permit.

AB 467
"In any case where this chapter requires that a permit be obtained from the State Fire Marshal, or in any case where the public agency having local jurisdiction requires pursuant to this chapter that a permit be obtained, a licensee shall possess a valid permit before performing any of the following:


(a) Manufacturing, importing, exporting, storing, possessing, or selling dangerous fireworks at wholesale.


(b) Manufacturing, importing, exporting, storing, selling at wholesale and retail safe and sane fireworks and transporting safe and sane fireworks, except that a transportation permit shall not be required for safe and sane fireworks possessed by retail licensees.


(c) Manufacturing, importing, exporting, possessing, storing, transporting, using, selling at wholesale and retail, those fireworks classified by the State Fire Marshal as agricultural and wildlife fireworks.


(d) Manufacturing, importing, exporting, possessing, storing, selling at wholesale and retail, model rocket motors.


(e) Discharging dangerous fireworks at any place, including a public display.


(f) Using special effects."

There is not ONE reference to actually having to acquire a permit to "use" a "model rocket" engine in this new addition to the current law.

Is that correct?

Or am I missing something here?

So is a permit actually required?