Estes-Shuttle: Build

neil_w said:

Beautiful work so far.

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Thanks Neil. I hope you are well these days.
Andrew

BSNW said:

Thanks Neil. I hope you are well these days.

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Well as can be expected!

AfterBurners said:

I would do 3 motors

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Although 3 24mm motors would be great. I think I would need to add nose weight to the point where it may impact the flight characteristics. At this point I am going to stick with a single 24mm mount and either go with an E15 (su) E30 (su) E18 RMS or even an F24W (rms). Thanks!
Andrew

dr wogz said:

Does he use the same adhesive / glue you use? (that white caulk gun stuff?) or just the technique?

From past experiences, I've found CA to be extremely hard to sand. it will sand, but you tend to sand more of the 'bare wood' than the CA soaked wood..

Have you thought of using a light weight balsa filler, the stuff R/C plane builders use? Light, easy to use, thins with water, and no smell!

https://www.hobbytown.com/deluxe-materials-wonderfill-foam-wood-filler-240ml-dlmbd48/p253221

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Check out this thread: https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/estes-conquest-build-and-musings.151560/page-2
Got to posts #45 thru #53....this will show you what I use for the sealing of the balsa....GREAT STUFF!!
Thanks for all the input guys!
Andrew

So tonight I did the sealing of the balsa. This product is very watery and penetrates the wood. It dries almost as fast as you put it on. It cleans up with household ammonia and water. I use it on all wood parts on my rockets. It also sands very very smooth. This is a sealer more than a covering primer. I kind of like that is has a white base as a lot of rockets I have have white in them. It can be top coated with any spray primer or paint. This quart has lasted for years. Note: the solids in this product sink over time. So one must stir from the bottom and really mix well. It is the best sealer money can by. When I was a professional house painter (other life), this was the Go-To product for kitchens and baths on repairs etc. ANYWAY...I will let this sit and dry well.

It is time to move onto the ROCKET part of this kit!

I only brushed onto the Balsa. I did "spot prime" a few sections on the paper though.

I will let the glider sit until I am ready to paint the booster/rocket. So I guess I am switching gears and moving onto the rocket/booster portion of this kit.

Pretty sure I will have to mask and paint parts prior to assembly. Looking at the card art, I dont know of any other way to do it. I will have to think about this. I really dislike masking and painting prior to assembly unless it is tail cone! The only way to get around it is to actually paint the booster holders that are to be white the same color as the "tank"/rocket. I guess these are some things I have to work out.....

More to come!
Andrew

I usually use a laquer sanding sealer, and it takes quite a few coats and sanding to fill the balsa grain. I never thought of using shellac, I imagine it would fill in the grain better with fewer coats. Is there much difference with the pigmented primer you use and just plain clear shellac? I might try that on my next build.

GlenP said:

I usually use a laquer sanding sealer, and it takes quite a few coats and sanding to fill the balsa grain. I never thought of using shellac, I imagine it would fill in the grain better with fewer coats. Is there much difference with the pigmented primer you use and just plain clear shellac? I might try that on my next build.

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Hey Glen-
I have never used clear shellac. I guess I first used BIN a LONG time ago because I had a can in my work truck and thought to use it on a rocket I was building. I lked how it soaked in and sealed the balsa and dried fast. I also liked that a quart will last forever and can be purchased at Home Depot.

I found that 2 coats of BIN plus 1 spray coat of primer, after sanding the BIN of course...did a pretty good job of smoothing things out. If you want ALL the grain gone, do a second spray coat of primer and by the time you paint...it will be like glass. I am happy with 2 coats of BIN and 1 coat of primer (spray). Then two top coats of paint. The glider with NOT get this much paint though...I am still thinking about this.

Thanks for your post!
Andrew

Getting started on the Rocket/Booster portion, I noticed it is easy to grab the wrong card stock sheets. If you have not built this yet, make sure you are gluing the correct section/pieces. There are subtle differences between the parts. I did not glue any wrong sections, but noticed that if you don't pay close attention, these are steps that are easily messed up.

As you can see, I used a sanding block with 220 grit to buff up the flat portions of the cut-outs. This is to make a better bonding surface for the glue. I then used a Q-Tip dipped in some wood glue to spread the glue. I then carefully pressed the sections together and wiped the edges. Tight-Bond wood glue sure does grab fast!!

Here are the three "holding structures" for the glider. Next come the structures for the booster tanks.

Nice build thread, I like how you're presenting your techniques. That fillet method looks like it would work well for LPR, does paint adhere to it well? Does it sand at all, or do you aim to get it right with your fingers?

mbeels said:

Nice build thread, I like how you're presenting your techniques. That fillet method looks like it would work well for LPR, does paint adhere to it well? Does it sand at all, or do you aim to get it right with your fingers?

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Thanks for your post.
Yes-paint adheres very well to it. I have been using this stuff for some time and have had no issues with paint/primer bonding.
When the fillet dries I have never had to do any "shape" sanding. Meaning when it dries down, all I have ever done is sand it with either 220 or 400 prior to painting. This is to simply ensure a good bonding surface. But I have never actually sanded the fillet....or needed to. If you try it...you will see what I mean. When one dips their finger into the water and runs it down the fillet. It really blends and smooths everything down amazingly well..especially on the edge where I pulled the tape. Just remember to always dip your finger in water before smoothing things out and don't over-work/mess with it too much. I really recommend trying it on a scrap piece of wood and tubing but don't worry, it is really easy!
I hope this helps!
Andrew

I have a couple questions about BIN if you don't mind. So just to be clear, you only use it on balsa - correct? And second, when you apply it - do you apply one coat, sand, and then another coat and sand? Or do you apply two coats, then sand it good.

Thanks!

-Mike

mg444 said:

I have a couple questions about BIN if you don't mind. So just to be clear, you only use it on balsa - correct? And second, when you apply it - do you apply one coat, sand, and then another coat and sand? Or do you apply two coats, then sand it good.

Thanks!

-Mike

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Mike
I primarily use it on any wood used in my rocketry construction. I use it as a sealer of wood grain so when I sand....before using spray primer, the wood is sealed (giving it even porosity for the spray primer). Also any loose wood grain is also sealed and sanded smooth after using this product. I do two coats...as the first coat soaks in pretty well. Then sand with 220. Make sure you stir it very well....as the solids sink to the bottom of the can. Also, see link in post #64 you will see photos of what I am talking about.
I hope this helps.
Andrew

How long do you need to wait before sanding and then priming when using BIN?

BSNW said:

Mike
I primarily use it on any wood used in my rocketry construction. I use it as a sealer of wood grain so when I sand....before using spray primer, the wood is sealed (giving it even porosity for the spray primer). Also any loose wood grain is also sealed and sanded smooth after using this product. I do two coats...as the first coat soaks in pretty well. Then sand with 220. Make sure you stir it very well....as the solids sink to the bottom of the can. Also, see link in post #64 you will see photos of what I am talking about.
I hope this helps.
Andrew

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Great, that helps, thank you!

Good job so far on this kit. Good luck on it!

BSNW said:

Mike
I primarily use it on any wood used in my rocketry construction. I use it as a sealer of wood grain so when I sand....before using spray primer, the wood is sealed (giving it even porosity for the spray primer). Also any loose wood grain is also sealed and sanded smooth after using this product. I do two coats...as the first coat soaks in pretty well. Then sand with 220. Make sure you stir it very well....as the solids sink to the bottom of the can. Also, see link in post #64 you will see photos of what I am talking about.
I hope this helps.
Andrew

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On your Conquest build, it looks like you applied it to the body tube as well. Seems like it can do a decent job of filling the spirals too.

https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/estes-conquest-build-and-musings.151560/page-2#post-1872238

CalebJ said:

How long do you need to wait before sanding and then priming when using BIN?

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It dries for handling in about 20 min. After I put the second coat on, I like to let it sit overnight or wait until it feels really "crispy" dry. I then sand it with 220 (or with 150 if the wood is really rough...take your pick). You will see that it powders up very nice. You should not get any "goobers" in your sandpaper when you sand it. It should (and does) powder up when you sand it when it is properly dry. If you get anything sticking on your sandpaper....stop and let it dry more. Again, I like overnight. In reality...I don't work that fast....so things tend to sit a few days until I get around to sanding and painting anyway.
Hope this helps.
Andrew

GlenP said:

On your Conquest build, it looks like you applied it to the body tube as well. Seems like it can do a decent job of filling the spirals too.

https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/estes-conquest-build-and-musings.151560/page-2#post-1872238

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Hey Glen-
Yea...I do put it on body tubes...usually on smaller rockets. I was surprised how well it fill things when I did the Conquest build.
Thanks - Have a great day.
Andrew

Really informative build so far - thanks!

MichaelRapp said:

Thank you so much for sharing this fillet technique. I've very much been in an improve-my-fillets mode. I was thinking of going down the epoxy route, reluctantly, as I am trying to minimize my use of that stuff. Now if I can only remember where I put my caulk gun...

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OMG.

I picked up a caulk tube of the Loctite PowerGrab Express Heavy Duty adhesive this afternoon and just finished doing some fillets on a small rocket. Wow! I can already tell these will most likely be the best fillets I have ever done. This stuff is so easy to work with! My sister is a pastry chef and it reminds me of some of the specialty frostings she uses when she sculpts various things.

I did exactly Andrew's method: lay down the tape, do a bead, run a wet craft stick down it, remove tape, run a wet finger down it to smooth it all out and remove the "hard" tape edge. I then used a wet finger a few times down each fillet to truly get them the way I want.

I like how it is water soluble but not overly so. As with every adhesive I've ever used on anything, I initially put on too much. This stuff really lets you smooth it out without messing it up. No air bubbles what-so-ever. A few ridges when I went a bit too fast with the stick, but great control with my finger.

I can't wait to see what these look like once they've dried.

(For those wanting to try it out, Loctite has slightly changed their graphics on the tube. It is still Loctite PowerGrab Express Heavy Duty Construction Adhesive, but will look differently than Andrew's tube. It's about a dollar more (mine was $4.78 at Lowe's) than the sister product, the All-Purpose (not heavy duty) Express adhesive.)

Thanks for posting, nice build

@BSNW - Several days ago I bought a quart of BIN at the local Ace Hardware store and applied it to the balsa fins on one of my current builds. The results are impressive.
Thanks for the tip!

I picked up some BIN as well. Really like it - and it doesn't smell that bad!

I picked up some BIN as well. I am playing with some scrap pieces of balsa. It does dry really fast -- just a bit longer than CWF -- but still really fast. It also sands really, really fine, far finer than CWF. I didn't get any of my usual gouges on my balsa that I tend to get with CWF. Very smooth as well. I am uncertain if I will abandon my papering-fin technique for it, but for small or awkward pieces for which papering won't work, I probably will do it.

This may be what I switch to for balsa nose cones as it sands so fine and quick. Really reduces the danger of oversanding.

Well....time to get back at it! I wanted to thank everyone for their input and comments! It really makes it fun. So I moved on to the rocket portion of the kit. I made some slight deviations from the instructions but nothing major.

I will pick up with the slotting of the tube. Estes gives you a handy guide to slot the tube.

I then cut out the slot. you can see it was a little "wavy gravy" but.it all turned out. I made a hash mark at the center of the slot and made a straight line (with my tube marking guide). this way I can make sure the fin is straight and true. see below.