Just how strong are OneBadHawk recovery harnesses?

Yesterday at MDRA the wind was pretty strong, at least 20 mph at ground level. Rockets were all weathercocking a lot which causes high speed deployments at apogee. I flew my 75 lb Cowabunga Mammoth on a M1850. It only went 2700 ft, much lower than expected, and was still moving pretty fast horizontally at apogee. When the drogue deployed the force was so strong that it bent the 5/16" stainless U-bolt and ripped the 24" Rocketman Pro Experimental drogue chute wide open. The recovery harness also tore a 3" long zipper through the fiberglass shoulder of the nosecone. But the recovery harness was undamaged! When I bought that 7/16" tubular Kevlar harness for my Cowabunga from OneBadHawk I was skeptical that it would be strong enough for a 75 lb rocket but Teddy said that it would be plenty strong. He was right.

The drogue chute is trashed but I can easily repair the zipper in the nose shoulder, and the bent U-bolt is still functional. So the big Cowabunga will be flying again soon. Thanks Teddy!

To quote 'The Best Recovery Harness in High Power, Period.'

And this was how our OBH landed yesterday... different field, slightly further south of the border and by all accounts much better launch conditions...



PIMP > Still tickets available for Havoc in the Paddock -- Feb 7, 8 & 9.. come on down for some fine weather launching...
https://www.nzrocketry.org.nz/events/Havoc

Wow...did anyone at this launch ever ask if it was safe to launch these types of rockets in those conditions? " a lot of weather cocking and high speed deployments...on 75 pound rocket(s).
Nothing personal....I am glad it worked out...But you said the winds were at least 20mph.

As long as nobody put a G motor on a 9 pound rc car.....its all ok!

I have dozens of Teddy's harnesses, and they have never let me down. I am not going to say Teddy has a perfect track-record, but he hasn't led me astray yet.

Yep Teddy makes good stuff probably even the best and great customer service.

Does the club not have a portable weather station with an anemometer, that was a really important investment for our club as the local forecast wasnt always "local enough".

Not the first time I've heard a story about a metal bolt bending/breaking instead of a Teddy harness.

I'm not surprised at all. If you look at the specs, the kevlar cord sizes we use for HPR are by far the strongest thing in the recovery chain. As long as the loops are well secured, the kevlar is probably going to be the last thing to fail. Pelican rates their 7/16" 12-strand kevlar line tensile strength at 21,200 lb. I'm not sure I could even find a way to break that with M-N level power and a high speed deployment. I use 1/8" for up through 3" rockets (tensile strength ~1 ton). Fatter line helps with zipper reduction though.

BSNW said:

Wow...did anyone at this launch ever ask if it was safe to launch these types of rockets in those conditions? " a lot of weather cocking and high speed deployments...on 75 pound rocket(s).
Nothing personal....I am glad it worked out...But you said the winds were at least 20mph.

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The last time I reviewed the safety codes there are supposed to be no rocket launches under those conditions. The club should have known better especially if observing severe weather cocking.

I don't know for sure what the wind speed was. The forcast was for wind speed of 10-20 mph. It felt to me like the gusts exceeded 20 mph but that is just a guess.

In any case, launches that are not sanctioned by NAR or Tripoli are not bound by those safety codes.

Nathan said:

I don't know for sure what the wind speed was. The forcast was for wind speed of 10-20 mph. It felt to me like the gusts exceeded 20 mph but that is just a guess.

In any case, launches that are not sanctioned by NAR or Tripoli are not bound by those safety codes.

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Not bound by those safety codes? I'm confused, and maybe I'm reading your response differently than it was intended, but I view the safety codes put forth by NAR and Tripoli are best practices to keep people safe regardless of who sanctions the launch.

Both NAR and Tripoli as part of their safety codes specify a max wind speed of 20mph which comes straight from NFPA 1122 and NFPA 1127. Afaik the only group with their own insurance and not affiliated with an organization directly is MDRA but I may be wrong.

With a 2ft chute (measured over the top, actually around 18” across), your rocket would be descending at 191.87fps at sea level! That is nearly 3 times faster than I would ever choose. Also it ripped randomly across the fabric, none of the seams broke, I think it ripped from getting dragged or a fin catching it personally. I would be looking at a 4ft chute at least. The 2ft Drogues are only designed up to 25lb rockets, and you well exceeded that with a 75lb Rocket. Also the harness is of corse going to survive as it’s just dangling there once the chute rips and there’s no stress on it.

I know of another club that used to be self insured, but is no longer. I don't understand why a club would want to be self insured/not sanctioned when the members have to be members in a national org. in order to fly HPR anyway. The insurance coverage is there as long as the safety codes are followed. Must be if the safety codes need a little tweaking they do so. Evidently they did so in this case. I looked up the self imposed MDRA safety codes, look to be the same as NAR/TRA including no flights if the wind is over 20mph. The only other reason I can think of for being self insured would be for flyers (LPR/MPR) not members of a national org wishing to fly, would be covered. But then I don't understand the club liability waiver that has to be signed by members. Maybe OP/someone can fill us in on why not NAR/TRA sanctioned flights.

Hey guys..
Someone wanted to say something nice about a product he bought.
Does this absolutely have to devolve into negative post after negative post ?
I was at the launch.
The wind speed was most definitely within the launch safety code of 20 mph, for sure, not by much.

Buddy,
The mass of rocket parts is certainly not the only stress a harness must withstand.
The stresses are far greater than that at the apogee event.
If this statement were correct-

Also the harness is of corse going to survive as it’s just dangling there once the chute rips and there’s no stress on it.

We could use 1/8" Tubular Kevlar on a 75 lb rocket..
The stresses at this event are directly related to the velocity of the vehicle at the moment of separation.
With this particular flight, the rocket did weather cock, and the velocity at the apogee event was high.
This happens, it's happened to me, it's happened to you..
I made a flat out math error years ago and flew a J 180 T in a 3" fiberglass rocket..
Velocity at the apogee event ( this event occurred pretty much at motor burnout ) was so high the drogue
was instantly turned into a ball of fine nylon fibre..
My harnesses tear through fiberglass for lunch and bend, twist or break steel on a regular basis.
This has been posted about many times.
There is no other harness made now or ever has been with my track record for this.
Someone tried to say something nice about my harnesses, this shouldn't be all negative..
When Nathan showed me the rocket and the Rocketman chute I told him that was completely to be expected.
The chutes structure was in perfect shape. No damage at all..
Only the ripstop nylon tore. Being deployed at high speed I don't find that unreasonable at all.
The fault of this damage was totally with the flight anomaly.
I told Nathan to contact you and I'm sure you'd repair the chute for him, no big deal at all.
You're opinion of drogue size / weight is off, and also has nothing to do with this event.
If this flight had gone perfectly and the velocity at the apogee event was nice and slow like we'd all like it every time
you're drogue would have been fine, even though it's a little small for that weight and decent from apogee would have been fast.

Since someone tried to do / say something nice.
Could we all try to keep that sentiment through this thread please ?

Ted Chernok

Nathan said:

Yesterday at MDRA the wind was pretty strong, at least 20 mph at ground level. Rockets were all weathercocking a lot which causes high speed deployments at apogee. I flew my 75 lb Cowabunga Mammoth on a M1850. It only went 2700 ft, much lower than expected, and was still moving pretty fast horizontally at apogee

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Just going by OP's post which doesn't sound too good. Any bad accident impacts all of us in the hobby not just the club. Safety First! Should we all ignore safety concerns in similar posts when a concern is brought up within the post? Some of us were just questioning if what was happening why it was allowed to continue, nothing more.

rcktnut said:

Just going by OP's post which doesn't sound too good. Any bad accident impacts all of us in the hobby not just the club. Safety First! Should we all ignore safety concerns in similar posts when a concern is brought up within the post? Some of us were just questioning if what was happening why it was allowed to continue, nothing more.

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Same here. There was a comment about wind gusts exceeding 20 mph. I have no idea whether these were estimates, or whether they were measured. I certainly know that I would be very uncomfortable flying in those conditions.

Onebadhawk said:

Hey guys..
Someone wanted to say something nice about a product he bought.
Does this absolutely have to devolve into negative post after negative post ?
I was at the launch.
The wind speed was most definitely within the launch safety code of 20 mph, for sure, not by much.

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I agree it was a post that was complimentary to your product, and I believe that clearly came out. When I go for my L3, I'm certainly going to be knocking on your door! But... if any of us have concerns over safety, I feel it is incumbent on us to express them. As rcknut said, this is a community and anything bad that happens (thankfully it did not go beyond damage to OP's rocket, which is repairable) has a much broader impact. My post was not at all intended to be negative - just to express a concern over the safety of the OP and those who attended the launch.

I never had issues like this, but of course I always make sure I have the right delay etc. I would imagine the wind may have had something to do with it? I always make sure my harnesses are longer than average. That seems to help, but then again I rarely use Kevlar and still no issues. I make my own harnesses so never a need to buy from someone. A good sewing machine and materials is a good start.

caveduck said:

I'm not surprised at all. If you look at the specs, the kevlar cord sizes we use for HPR are by far the strongest thing in the recovery chain. As long as the loops are well secured, the kevlar is probably going to be the last thing to fail. Pelican rates their 7/16" 12-strand kevlar line tensile strength at 21,200 lb. I'm not sure I could even find a way to break that with M-N level power and a high speed deployment. I use 1/8" for up through 3" rockets (tensile strength ~1 ton). Fatter line helps with zipper reduction though.

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There are also other products out there that help prevent this from happening. I know GL sells a ball of some sort that you attach to the harness that prevents the zippering.

Back to the point of the thread, Teddy’s harnesses are outstanding. I had a 5” Madcow Terminator come in ballistic from roughly 10,000 ft when the rogue failed to deploy. The main deployed at terminal velocity at 800 feet. Literally exploded the 84 inch Fruity chute Iris, zippered the fiberglass airframe, and the harness survived. The main deployment saved the harness and costly avionics. The airframe and chute was utterly destroyed.

Worsaer said:

Back to the point of the thread, Teddy’s harnesses are outstanding. I had a 5” Madcow Terminator come in ballistic from roughly 10,000 ft when the rogue failed to deploy. The main deployed at terminal velocity at 800 feet. Literally exploded the 84 inch Fruity chute Iris, zippered the fiberglass airframe, and the harness survived. The main deployment saved the harness and costly avionics. The airframe and chute was utterly destroyed.

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Look its made of Kevlar what would you expect? It to shred? Kevlar is Kevlar whats your point? What is there something mysterious about his harnesses. No I don't so. I'm sure if you bought a harness somewhere else and its made of Kevlar and the same specifications the results would be exactly the same. I'm just stating the obvious.

I swear BY Teddy's harnesses, not AT them and use them in all my HP birds.

Worsaer said:

Back to the point of the thread, Teddy’s harnesses are outstanding. I had a 5” Madcow Terminator come in ballistic from roughly 10,000 ft when the rogue failed to deploy. The main deployed at terminal velocity at 800 feet. Literally exploded the 84 inch Fruity chute Iris, zippered the fiberglass airframe, and the harness survived. The main deployment saved the harness and costly avionics. The airframe and chute was utterly destroyed.

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Thank you so much Bill..
I never even knew this happened..
At least you got back the important parts that will live to fly again, lol..
I haven't spoken to you in a while,
any chance you'll make a launch with MDRA at Higgs farm in Maryland ??

Thank you always man,,

o1d_dude said:

I swear BY Teddy's harnesses, not AT them and use them in all my HP birds.

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Heyyy,,
How are you Kit ?
Another one I haven't spoken to for a while..
How's everything on the left coast ?
Are you still flying with your buddy out there ?
Giving him a good firm handshake for me, lol..

Everyone is always so nice,,

Thank you all,,

Teddy

I’ve managed to get one of Teddy’s harness to fail. I flew a 3” Darkstar on the salt flats a few years ago. The drogue didn’t come out and the main shredded because of the speed. I took a core sample of the salt, burying the payload bay, obliterating the av bay, and burying the body tube within a foot of the fins. It severed the harness in the process. I figure Teddy should have replaced it under warranty. [emoji3]

Jmhepworth said:

I’ve managed to get one of Teddy’s harness to fail. I flew a 3” Darkstar on the salt flats a few years ago. The drogue didn’t come out and the main shredded because of the speed. I took a core sample of the salt, burying the payload bay, obliterating the av bay, and burying the body tube within a foot of the fins. It severed the harness in the process. I figure Teddy should have replaced it under warranty. [emoji3]

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Wow Joe,,
Which harness was it ??
You have some of those 9/16" Tubular Kevlar harnesses that I made 4 or 5 years ago..
I sure do wish I could get that material again.
Was it one of those or one that you bought on the black sale of 2018..
Is it repairable ??
I'd sure like to see it..

Teddy

Teddy, I’ll have to look to see if I still have the remains. I think it was the 9/16”, but I’m not sure. I believe that launch was the summer of 2017 so it had to have been something I bought before the 2018 sale. It may be tough stuff, but fiberglass sliced it neatly when it went into the salt.

Joe

Jmhepworth said:

Teddy, I’ll have to look to see if I still have the remains. I think it was the 9/16”, but I’m not sure. I believe that launch was the summer of 2017 so it had to have been something I bought before the 2018 sale. It may be tough stuff, but fiberglass sliced it neatly when it went into the salt.

Joe

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Yep,
I totally hear you Joe..
Nothing on this earth is completely indestructible..
Some things take more effort to destruct then others, lol..

Teddy

I hope you guys don't mind..
I just received a little note from someone I shipped to yesterday..
What a nice man..
This is what makes this community so wonderful..
It's just so nice to receive something like this,
I can't even express it in words..

Hi Ted!

Thank you for the personal note and reimbursement of shipping overage! I'm familiar with you from TRF. I'm a BAR who is getting back after 42 years and amazed at how this hobby has evolved. I learned from TRF and all who recommend you that you are the best and your harnesses are the best there can be. I must say I was excited and proud that I placed my first order with you yesterday.

Thank you sir!


Teddy

Teddy is a top notch guy. He will answer and help anyone who needs it. Teddy and his Wife supply nothing but high quality products for his hobby. You just can't go wrong making a One Bad Hawk purchase.

Gary

Onebadhawk said:

I hope you guys don't mind..
I just received a little note from someone I shipped to yesterday..
What a nice man..
This is what makes this community so wonderful..
It's just so nice to receive something like this,
I can't even express it in words..

Hi Ted!

Thank you for the personal note and reimbursement of shipping overage! I'm familiar with you from TRF. I'm a BAR who is getting back after 42 years and amazed at how this hobby has evolved. I learned from TRF and all who recommend you that you are the best and your harnesses are the best there can be. I must say I was excited and proud that I placed my first order with you yesterday.

Thank you sir!


Teddy

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Kudos to you Teddy!