I am getting a Tesla

FredA said:

Also - My dino-burner has over 250k miles on it -- will you get that from your battery pack? Are you sure?

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My EV's battery pack has an eight-year, 100,000 mile warranty. If its capacity drops to below 70% of its advertised capacity in that period, it will be replaced or repaired. It is estimated, that the battery packs will actually retain 70% capacity after 15 years and 200,000 miles. At which point, the car might finally need the brakes serviced, but will still be usable (but with reduced range). Chances are though, that before that, the battery pack would be recycled for use in a home or business and replaced with one that is cheaper and more efficient as batteries continue to improve.

FredA said:

Also - My dino-burner has over 250k miles on it -- will you get that from your battery pack? Are you sure?

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This is a substantial part of my thinking and probably the reason why I differ so much from many who are posting to this thread (that, and the options for solar in Ohio are *vastly* more limiting than in southern states - particularly since I don't own my own home and cannot until I retire). The rationale for buying a car, and it's associated costs, is vastly different for people who regularly buy new cars versus people like me who simply assume that "new" to me is something that already has over 100,000 miles on it. As we've "traded up" over the years the best/newest we've ever had is my wife's minivan that we bought with something over 50k, but which now has well over 100k and I see no reason that we'll still have it when it's over 200k miles. Someone, earlier in this thread, made a comment that a fleet operator thought that the batteries in their EV's would last for "the life of the vehicle" but their assumed life was 100k. If that's even remotely true, I'm not sure that they'll ever trickle down the food chain far enough for people like me to ever buy one.

Dave A said:

We bought a rental home in FL a few years ago
I thought of having solar panels installed and build my own powerwall and add a small generator.
Unfortunately, Fl Power spends millions lobbying against residential solar power.
As I understand you can only get solar systems installed by a utility company in FL.
I'd rather just install a generator panel and run it on LP.

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FPL has managed to institute some archaic laws and regs regarding solar in FL, yet lawmakers are starting to change the equation. Though it will take years for it to really get fixed. In time I think FPL will relax their lobbying on this.

Here is where it gets weird, as I understand it, correct me if I am wrong. If you have solar in Florida, you can not run your house on it. You have to feed it back to FPL for a credit. You have to have a shutoff switch for the solar and it has to be on the outside of your house and accessible to FPL. In other words you cannot lock it. This is smart for the simple reason of hurricanes/power outages, FPL doesn't want that juice coming down the lines from the panels during a down event. Now during a down event, you can power off the panels. You can also have a powerwall, this was a law/req that just recently changed. The powerwall can be charged by the panels and then the powerwall provides juice during downtime or can be used to charge your Tesla or other EV.

Peartree said:

This is a substantial part of my thinking and probably the reason why I differ so much from many who are posting to this thread (that, and the options for solar in Ohio are *vastly* more limiting than in southern states - particularly since I don't own my own home and cannot until I retire). The rationale for buying a car, and it's associated costs, is vastly different for people who regularly buy new cars versus people like me who simply assume that "new" to me is something that already has over 100,000 miles on it. As we've "traded up" over the years the best/newest we've ever had is my wife's minivan that we bought with something over 50k, but which now has well over 100k and I see no reason that we'll still have it when it's over 200k miles. Someone, earlier in this thread, made a comment that a fleet operator thought that the batteries in their EV's would last for "the life of the vehicle" but their assumed life was 100k. If that's even remotely true, I'm not sure that they'll ever trickle down the food chain far enough for people like me to ever buy one.

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Expected battery life, at least for cars with good battery thermal management, is *far* longer than 100K miles, if you take decent care of it. Tesla Model 3 packs are designed for 500K. Plenty of Teslas out there with pretty high mileage at this point, very few battery issues.

Peartree said:

If that's even remotely true, I'm not sure that they'll ever trickle down the food chain far enough for people like me to ever buy one.

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As EVs become more common, they will become more affordable.

But, right now there are already some bargains on used ones.

I was going to buy a two-year old Honda Fit for $12,000 when I decided to look to see what else I could get for about the same price. I found a four year old BMW i3 for $15,000 loaded with all the fancy features I didn't need (but like). The i3 gets the equivalent of more than twice the gas mileage, has many luxury features like navigation and active cruise control, and more safety features. With the reduced cost of fuel and maintenance, it's less expensive over the next few years than the Honda Fit. And, best of all, it is really fun to drive.

Nissan Leafs are really inexpensive used and are okay unless you live in a warm climate like here in Florida. The Chevy Bolt is a nice car and is often available used at a good price. And, a used BMW i3 offers a lot of features and cool technology (like a carbon-fiber reinforced plastic body) at a good price.

Remember what Tesla did for owner in Houston during IRMA? https://www.pcmag.com/news/356097/tesla-extends-ev-range-for-hurricane-irma-evacuees. So who knows what wizardry they might implement in other disaster scenarios.

My boss told me a story about his electric car (I forget what mfg) that he'd owned for several years and the range of the battery had decreased a significant percentage. He had it charged at the airport while on a trip and flew back one very cold night where he was worried he might not be able to drive home (about an hour from the airport). He didn't run the heater in order to save energy for the trip but he only barely made it to our office charging station without enough charge to get him all the way home. So he sat here for an hour or more to charge the battery enough to get him the last 10-15 minutes home.

He still drives that car but has gotten a Tesla since then that his wife drives most of the time. He took me for a test drive once and demonstrated the autonomous driving that it can do, which I absolutely loved!! I cannot wait to get to the point where that is available in most cars that I can afford. I'm a big fan of that technology.

BEC said:

I am in Washington where gas is currently over $3 a gallon. So $40/month is the cost equivalent of 13 gallons of gas.

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I live in Washington and paid $2.48/gallon at Costco yesterday. You need to do a better job of shopping for your gasoline.

Tyeeking said:

I live in Washington and paid $2.48/gallon at Costco yesterday. You need to do a better job of shopping for your gasoline.

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How sweet of you to give that advice. Care to share the location of this particular Costco?

FYI, the "over $3" was for the convenience store nearby at which I never buy gas, but which I pass very frequently (twice a day when I was commuting).

When the Mazda needs gas, Costco or Fred Meyer are my preference. But I don't remember what the price was the last time I actually bought gas.

BEC said:

How sweet of you to give that advice. Care to share the location of this particular Costco?

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Newport Highway, Spokane WA but you will find that virtually all Costcos are within a few pennies of that price. Go to www.gasbuddy.com to look for gas prices near you, particularly if as you said you are paying over $3.00/gallon

Gas prices updated at least daily:
https://www.gasbuddy.com/GasPrices

There are lots of places in WA that have gas at around $2.50/gallon, but not so many within a reasonable drive of my house in North Seattle. The station I use most often is about $3 now. If I was going to fill up my minivan (~16 gallons), I could save about 30 cents a gallon by driving to a Costco 12 miles/30 minutes out of my way round trip, but the gas to get there and back eats up half of the savings before I even count the value of my time.

boatgeek said:

There are lots of places in WA that have gas at around $2.50/gallon, but not so many within a reasonable drive of my house in North Seattle. The station I use most often is about $3 now. If I was going to fill up my minivan (~16 gallons), I could save about 30 cents a gallon by driving to a Costco 12 miles/30 minutes out of my way round trip, but the gas to get there and back eats up half of the savings before I even count the value of my time.

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It's like that in Ohio as well. The prices in our small town (Alliance) vary quite a bit but we know which stations typically have lower prices than others. At the same time, we also know that if we're going anywhere, we should fill up before heading to Canton because almost all the stations there, and anywhere close to Interstate 77 can often be 20 to 30 cent per gallon more. Occasionally the news will broadcast a "average price per gallon in Ohio" graphic on the evening news, but it's rarely anywhere close to what we're paying. The price varies dramatically depending on population densities, highway traffic, competition, and how close your station is to the nearest refinery. That said, we use the Gas Buddy app a LOT.

Peartree said:

It's like that in Ohio as well. The prices in our small town (Alliance) vary quite a bit but we know which stations typically have lower prices than others. At the same time, we also know that if we're going anywhere, we should fill up before heading to Canton because almost all the stations there, and anywhere close to Interstate 77 can often be 20 to 30 cent per gallon more. Occasionally the news will broadcast a "average price per gallon in Ohio" graphic on the evening news, but it's rarely anywhere close to what we're paying. The price varies dramatically depending on population densities, highway traffic, competition, and how close your station is to the nearest refinery. That said, we use the Gas Buddy app a LOT.

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Price depends on when Speedway spikes the price by $0.30.

ROFL.. you think you have it bad in the states, local price here today was NZD $2.35 per litre - 3.78litre = 1 us gallon = NZD$8.88 per US gallon = USD$5.90 !

And yes, over half the local price is government applied tarrifs, levies & taxes.

FredA said:

Grid losses are in the 50% ballpark.
Charging and discharge efficiency is AT BEST 87% [really more like 75%] each direction.

....so that 60% efficiency at the generator doesn't look as good where the rubber hits the road.

Also - My dino-burner has over 250k miles on it -- will you get that from your battery pack? Are you sure?

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You somehow are assuming that producing gasoline has no energy cost to it and does not require any electricity. Have you looked at the inputs that are required to extract oil from the Canadian tar sands? That gasoline you are pumping into your car requires substantial energy inputs for refining and transportation before it burns up in your cylinders.

Everything I've seen on battery life says that they will outlast the service life of the typical vehicle. (For example, the battery pack on my wife's 2006 hybrid is still in good operating condition.) Add up all the oil changes and other ICE maintenance costs you've had in those 250,000 miles, as well as any repairs to ICE specific subsystems, plus the fuel differential, and that price advantage doesn't look so good. And you can't possibly be sure any ICE engine will last 250,000 miles just because yours has, any more than I can claim that every battery from a 2006 hybrid will still be good just because my wife's has survived.

I really don't understand why people take a stance against a technology that does not affect them. If you don't like EV's, don't buy or drive one. But to try and make spurious arguments against them just makes it seem like a desperate defense against a new technology.


Tony

Tesla is very close to a 1 million mile battery. They already have 1 million mile drivetrains that when taken apart looks almost brand new.

https://electrek.co/2018/10/15/tesla-drive-after-million-miles-test/

RocketGeekInFL said:

Tesla is very close to a 1 million mile battery. They already have 1 million mile drivetrains that when taken apart looks almost brand new.

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That million mile battery would be cool. I think the combined mileage of all the petrol cars I've ever owned probably only adds up to around 500k and I could only hope to be fortunate enough to add a million miles to that for the remainder of my life.

Solid State Battery technology is also pretty fascinating to follow. Who's going to figure out how to economically mass produce those?

You can read my thoughts on what it's like to own and operate a Tesla Model 3 here:

Quora: What is it like to own a Tesla Model 3

I considered an EV at my last purchase time, since my new job has a much longer commute and is not on the bus route. The only ones in my price range were the Nissan Leaf (used). Nissan has a horrible reputation since they (still) have no temperature regulation (heating/cooling) of their battery packs. I saw multiple ~2-3yr old Leafs with low mileage and only 70% or lower battery remaining. Some as low as 50%. Teslas are very big around here, but out of my price range. My used Prius gets me 50mpg, but it's a complex beast that still has all the maintenance of ICE, plus the expensive parts of an EV! It'll work for now. -Ken

I would also add that when the power goes out many gas stations without backup generators don't work either, and others simply run out.

A little-appreciated fact of owning an electric car is that essentially it's always full every morning and you don't have to go ANYWHERE to fill it up.

Except on trips. We did a 1400 mile trip to move one of my kids to college and spent $81 on electricity for the trip, including "expensive" Superchargers along the way. Had we taken our other car it would have cost $243 in gas. The three charging stops took 10 minutes, 19 minutes, and 34 minutes. Since we took bathroom breaks and lunch at these, we actually stayed longer than we needed to at each, so we didn't really notice the charging times.

The car may cost more to buy, but with the cheap operating cost and no need for routine oil changes it's not as bad as it seems. You generally never go to gas stations. You never go to get the oil changed.

It's also by far the most fun car I've ever driven. And that includes Corvettes, Porsches, and BMWs. Anyone that lives or visits the California Bay Area is welcome to drive mine to see what it's like. Kinda doesn't fit in your head that it's a four door sedan with lots of storage and is so fun to drive.

To each his own.
I will never give up my Wrangler or Hemi powered pickup.
I love off roading and electric cars do not have the sound of a hemi

Sorry, I'm that guy... So we are co-owners of your Tesla. You are welcome.

neil_w said:

I got my Tesla when the full federal credit was still in effect, so that was $7500 at the time. Now it's gone for Tesla and GM, still in relatively good shape for other manufacturers as far as I know. Here in NJ, no sales tax on EVs, so that's good for another ~$3K.

EDIT: GM has $1875 federal tax credit in place until the end of March, 2020. Then zero.

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"If you don't like EV's, don't buy or drive one. "

I like them - they are fun to drive and am seriously considering one for the wife as it fits her driving pattern.
One wouldn't work as our only car.

Would I trade my 911 for a Tycan? Probably..... Trade it for a Tesla? Probably NOT.

Just not fooled by the economy.

KILTED COWBOY said:

To each his own.
I will never give up my Wrangler or Hemi powered pickup.
I love off roading and electric cars do not have the sound of a hemi

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It's funny ... I love how quiet my i3 is. I also love the throaty roar of our 2005 Mustang GT.

(One of the reasons I bought the EV was to help reduce the miles we drive the Mustang. We drive it for fun.)

KILTED COWBOY said:

and electric cars do not have the sound of a hemi

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I'm used to that argument. I've flown electric powered RC airplanes since the early 1980s. I used to get that same silliness from the glow/gas-powered guys. Of course now most all of them are flying electric....

Tyeeking said:

Newport Highway, Spokane WA but you will find that virtually all Costcos are within a few pennies of that price. Go to www.gasbuddy.com to look for gas prices near you, particularly if as you said you are paying over $3.00/gallon

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I figured you must be on the other side of the state from your comment. I was just by the Costco closest to my house. Today's regular gas $2.80/gallon there. It doesn't change my point significantly. So instead of 13 gallons my $40/month buys 14.3 gallons at today's local Costco price.

John Beans said:

A little-appreciated fact of owning an electric car is that essentially it's always full every morning and you don't have to go ANYWHERE to fill it up.

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YES!! This makes even a short range EV actually quite usable in an urban/suburban environment.

new2hpr said:

I considered an EV at my last purchase time, since my new job has a much longer commute and is not on the bus route. The only ones in my price range were the Nissan Leaf (used). Nissan has a horrible reputation since they (still) have no temperature regulation (heating/cooling) of their battery packs. I saw multiple ~2-3yr old Leafs with low mileage and only 70% or lower battery remaining. Some as low as 50%. Teslas are very big around here, but out of my price range. My used Prius gets me 50mpg, but it's a complex beast that still has all the maintenance of ICE, plus the expensive parts of an EV! It'll work for now. -Ken

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Nissan, sadly, hasn't figured this out. They are the outliers in their approach (or lack of approach) to battery thermal management among EV makers. Any battery, whether it's the 4V 0.44 Wh cell in an AltimeterThree or the 400V 27KWh battery in the Soul EV I drive, will degrade over time and use, but how much and how fast depends on many things.

We are generally of the "buy it new or gently used then drive it until it dies, while maintaining it properly along the way" school of thought. I've had six new cars in 43 years of owning cars. Two of them are our current two (the 2016 Soul EV and the 2013 Mazda3). The prior two were retired by, in one case an accident on the way to work (1988 Mazda 323 with 317,000 miles on it and still running great), and the other (1990 Mazda MPV with well over 200K on it) when the kid we passed it on to gave up on it when it was having transmission issues. Having cars with over 200K miles on them around is normal for us.

I've never leased before getting the Soul EV and I leased because I knew things were changing fast in the EV world (and it was a screaming deal - $195/month). The plan is to buy the next one some time next year and drive that one essentially until it dies. Deciding to go all EV (or maintaining a "mixed fleet") is several years further beyond that. The Mazda has less than 80K on it....and as I mentioned the charging infrastructure in some places we'd like to travel is, at the present time, lacking still.

scadaman29325 said:

Sorry, I'm that guy... So we are co-owners of your Tesla. You are welcome.

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Not to put too fine a point on it, but it was a tax credit to incent people to buy electric cars, similar to the way a mortgage interest deduction reduces our taxes to encourage us to borrow money to buy houses. Are we co-owners of your house? You are welcome.

Ideally we'd get rid of all tax incentives, but probably everybody's got at least one they think we should keep.

Tesla just opened a factory in Shanghai:

https://techcrunch.com/2019/01/07/tesla-shanghai-china-model-3/
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/30/tes...reportedly-making-1000-model-3s-per-week.html
https://www.theguardian.com/technol...s-first-china-made-cars-from-shanghai-factory
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-tesla-china-delivery-idUSKBN1Z60OC
https://www.foxnews.com/world/tesla-breaks-ground-on-factory-in-shanghai
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/t...customers-2020-01-07?siteid=yhoof2&yptr=yahoo

Also, it's now bigger than Ford or GM ever were:
https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/tesla-stock-price-bigger-ford-gm

IMO, all they really need to do to be successful is to put a decent electric motor in a standard-looking car, instead of in cute-looking bugs (sorry Leaf, Bolt, and i3, subcompacts are fine, but not the norm, even I know that). People like me anyway, we keep the silly stuff for the weekend, but look perfectly normal in day-to-day life. How many cars can you name that fit THAT bill? It's as if makers have mysteriously chose to bypass that obvious set of specs for a century.

John Beans said:

....<snipped for brevity>....It's also by far the most fun car I've ever driven. And that includes Corvettes, Porsches, and BMWs. Anyone that lives or visits the California Bay Area is welcome to drive mine to see what it's like. Kinda doesn't fit in your head that it's a four door sedan with lots of storage and is so fun to drive.

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This was a near universal comment from all the owners I have talked to, including guys who owned a Porsche 911 and Corvette. Sports car types said the instantaneous torque and acceleration from the Teslas was unlike any ICE car they had ever driven. No 'turbo lag', no gear shifts, just push the pedal and ZOOM. Some did miss the sound of their exhaust systems of their old sports cars, including one who had a tuned Corvette system. What he thought was just crazy was watching videos of the Tesla Model S SEDAN smoke all kinds of sports cars in the 1/4 mile, including Z06 Corvettes.

Forget about everything else and the Tesla is just a great car to drive.


Tony

I want sex appeal, style and power in my cars. If the EV manufacturers can do this, I'd have a serious look at them. I'm not against the technology, I'm not interested in their lack luster approach in head turning vehicles. Make it look like a Ferrari or Lotus and I'll bite. It took the big three forever to bring back the glory years of muscle and now the streets are filled with Mustangs, Challengers and Camaros. The EV industry may very well drag it's feet with something alluring.