Decisions, decisions...

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John Kemker

John Kemker

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So, I'm pondering my choices for a kit to get back into HPR with. I have narrowed it down to two choices:

LOC Precision Goblin (4", 54mm motor mount)

LOC Precision Ultimate (4", 7x29mm motor mounts)

I have an Estes Goblin that I've built but not painted. I'd like to have the two as part of an "upscale fleet" of vehicles. I've also got an Estes Der Red Max and V2 with plans to eventually get upscales of those, as well. (AMW Der Fiber Red Max and at least a 7.5" V2)

On the other hand, not a lot of Ultimates out there, and it's got clusters. 7x29mm mounts makes for a LOT of ISP. And I can always fly it on a single motor for smaller fields.

Either way, dual deployment and an Eggfinder TRS 70cm setup are planned for whatever I get.

If you suggest I go one way or the other, please tell me WHY, not just "go with the Goblin" or "go with the Ultimate."
 
Are you using this rocket to recertify with? Wouldn't that limit you to a single motor? I'd go Goblin for that reason alone, and use a nice 38mm or 54mm I (edited to remove the J or K recommendation, too many Level 2 sims on my brain right now) . You could launch the Ultimate on a single 29 for cert, but that's playing the safe side of boring. :D

Do whatever blows your hair back (assuming you got any), regardless of what others think. This is your hobby, enjoy it however you want.
 
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AeroAggie said:
Are you using this rocket to recertify with? Wouldn't that limit you to a single motor? I'd go Goblin for that reason alone, and use a nice 38mm or 54mm I (edited to remove the J or K recommendation, too many Level 2 sims on my brain right now) . You could launch the Ultimate on a single 29 for cert, but that's playing the safe side of boring. :D

Do whatever blows your hair back (assuming you got any), regardless of what others think. This is your hobby, enjoy it however you want.
Click to expand...
First off, "GIG'EM!"

Second, thanks for the input. The Goblin "cert"ainly looks attractive for the reasons you give. Yes, I would be looking to recertify on this rocket. Ideally, it would be built in such a way as to provide a dress rehearsal for Level 3: Advanced construction techniques, dual-deployment, etc. I'm even considering upscaling yet AGAIN, to get to L3 with a bigger, badder version.

Hmm...if the Goblin is the original, then the 4in. version would be an Orc and a 6in. or larger diameter upscale would be an Uruk-Hai, right? (LOTR reference)
 
LOC has you covered up to a 7.5" Goblin which will take you well into Level 3 territory with 98mm motors. I'm building a 4" now with plans to fly it on loads up to a K550 or so. I don't think I'd push this airframe much beyond that without some reinforcement, but I plan to keep it as a stock build.

Gig 'em!
 
You're going about it all wrong.
If 4" is an Orc, then 5 .5 would be Uruk-hai, then 7.5 would have to be a troll, in LOTR lore anyway. :D

I prefer the look of the Ultimate over the Goblin. While I do like the Goblin, it's not one of my favorite designs and I don't like it enough to have one in my fleet yet.

But, I say the Goblin. You can fly the full range of L1 motors and are not tied down to 29mm. But you can adapt down and still fly them. You can use it for L2 if you absolutely feel you had to or you can stick a L2 motor in after you get certified with another rocket. Build it light enough and you can fly it on 1Grain 54s. Sorry I always have to throw that in. I just love those little motors.

With the Ultimate you are restricted to 29mm, and likely the punchier ones at that if you fly with only one; and clusters, while cool can get expensive REALLY fast. All those fins and all those motor tubes add weight as well. The good folks at LOC may can upgrade it to 54mm if you ask nicely.

Build the Ultimate later, when single motors become stale and you want to try something different.

Be wary of the K550. It has been known to shred the LOC Goblin. We had one shred at our local launch, but I wasn't there to see it. I think it was built following the instructions, with nothing extra done. This was when they first were introduced and was a "fly it til destruction" test methinks. Instructions and materials may have changed since then, don't know. Do your homework and build it accordingly. Fairly certain folks have flown it on the K550 since with no issues.
 
Okay, so two out of two advisers say Goblin first, Ultimate later. I can work with that. Have told buyrockets.com to let me know when he has 4in. Goblins back in stock. He's got the better prices.

Mikey, I like your thoughts on the progression of Goblin sizes! The trick is going to be getting someone to make appropriate decals in the right font to replace "Goblin" with "Orc," "Uruk Hai," and "Troll."

EDIT: Oh, and as far as a K550 in it goes, I'm planning on glassing the airframe and fins. Read good stuff about using a FoodSaver for vacuum bagging, so.... [grin]

I *did* say I was treating it as a warmup for my L3, didn't I?
 
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I've flown a bone stock LOC 4" Goblin built with only Yellow glue on a AT K456DM with no problems. However as Mike says, I prefer to fly it on 54/426 motors, just for the fun factor. The K456DM took it to ~ 3000'. While I never was a Estes Goblin fan, I do like the LOC Goblin. Fun flier. In fact, I liked it enough to get Wildman's 5" FG Goblin. That has dual deploy standard and has a 75mm mmt. You can always adapt down to 54mm. The LOC 7.5 Goblin is another great choice.
 
Like jd2cylman, I too have a LOC Goblin. Fully assembled using Aeropoxy. Built the fin can outside of the airframe and completed install with full set of internal & external fillets. So obviously it exceeds the 3.3lb limit. Flew it on an AT I195J-10 to 2,900+ ft. Arrow straight flight. I am fairly confident it can handle a K550. Going to find out next summer.... :p

All this to say, go for the Goblin. It is a fun easy build and if constructed with epoxy, it can handle high impulse with ease.
 
John Kemker said:
Okay, so two out of two advisers say Goblin first, Ultimate later. I can work with that. Have told buyrockets.com to let me know when he has 4in. Goblins back in stock. He's got the better prices.

Mikey, I like your thoughts on the progression of Goblin sizes! The trick is going to be getting someone to make appropriate decals in the right font to replace "Goblin" with "Orc," "Uruk Hai," and "Troll."

EDIT: Oh, and as far as a K550 in it goes, I'm planning on glassing the airframe and fins. Read good stuff about using a FoodSaver for vacuum bagging, so.... [grin]

I *did* say I was treating it as a warmup for my L3, didn't I?
Click to expand...

For decals, go see Mark at Stickerhock23. Tell him what ya want, he'll make it happen.
 
Check out Apogee review of the LOC ultimate. They had some “issues” with the retaining and heck the aft closure motor interference as the motor holes were too close together. I’d steer away from the ultimate for that reason alone. Plus I think Tripoli won’t let you certify on a complex cluster or staged model. That may not matter now if your NAR but let’s say someday down the road you’d want to make research motors and get Tripoli L2 signed off.
 
Saw the video put out by Tim on the Ultimate. That's actually what inspired me to look into it. If I had bought the Ultimate, it'd be for L1 re-certify, only.

And, yes, I'll be going the TRA route again, for my re-certification. Tripoli Research is definitely a goal. I made some in the past and look forward to doing it again.
 
Yeah I’m Tripoli which is what made me think of those rules. Honestly if I were you I’d get a goblin capable of doing L1 and L2 motors lol. But hey don’t listen to me, I’m L2’ing a 54mm Min Diameter with dual deploy.
 
MikeyDSlagle said:
You're going about it all wrong.
If 4" is an Orc, then 5 .5 would be Uruk-hai, then 7.5 would have to be a troll, in LOTR lore anyway. :D
Click to expand...

Okay, so something was nagging me about this...

The largest would be a Uruk-Hai, not a troll. Treebeard said that trolls were "made...in mockery of Ents." Orcs were made as a mockery of Elves.

(Yes, I had to go look it up!)
 
John Kemker said:
Okay, so something was nagging me about this...

The largest would be a Uruk-Hai, not a troll. Treebeard said that trolls were "made...in mockery of Ents." Orcs were made as a mockery of Elves.

(Yes, I had to go look it up!)
Click to expand...

LOL. I did not know that.



Still laughing, weird the directions conversations go. LOL
 
MikeyDSlagle said:
You're going about it all wrong.
If 4" is an Orc, then 5 .5 would be Uruk-hai, then 7.5 would have to be a troll, in LOTR lore anyway. :D

I prefer the look of the Ultimate over the Goblin. While I do like the Goblin, it's not one of my favorite designs and I don't like it enough to have one in my fleet yet.

But, I say the Goblin. You can fly the full range of L1 motors and are not tied down to 29mm. But you can adapt down and still fly them. You can use it for L2 if you absolutely feel you had to or you can stick a L2 motor in after you get certified with another rocket. Build it light enough and you can fly it on 1Grain 54s. Sorry I always have to throw that in. I just love those little motors.

With the Ultimate you are restricted to 29mm, and likely the punchier ones at that if you fly with only one; and clusters, while cool can get expensive REALLY fast. All those fins and all those motor tubes add weight as well. The good folks at LOC may can upgrade it to 54mm if you ask nicely.

Build the Ultimate later, when single motors become stale and you want to try something different.

Be wary of the K550. It has been known to shred the LOC Goblin. We had one shred at our local launch, but I wasn't there to see it. I think it was built following the instructions, with nothing extra done. This was when they first were introduced and was a "fly it til destruction" test methinks. Instructions and materials may have changed since then, don't know. Do your homework and build it accordingly. Fairly certain folks have flown it on the K550 since with no issues.
Click to expand...

Go Goblin. Get the motor insert and you can fly it on anything. Dress it up in Yellow or let your artistic mind wander... one of mine is painted like a “Rat Rod” the other like a SPAD VIII from WWI - got tired of seeing all the Red Barons. The Ultimate is cool but the Goblin is more versatile.
 
clusters rock! i had a thoy nighthawk some time ago that was 7-29's. during construction i plugged 4 of the mmts at the top. the other 3 i left open for motor ejection. i had some old SU cases i cut down to 3/4" above the thrust ring and filled with epoxy for plugs that i used when flying single motor.
the drawback was limited L1 motor selection for single motor flights. this was back 20 years ago.
a larger diameter airframe with central 38 and 6-29's would be pretty wicked. ;)
but then again, cesaroni has quite a few L1 29's now.

who am i kiddin- a larger airframe with 7-38's would be wickeder!
 

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